Thread: Tale of Two Routers (and a guide bush)

Donald, thanks for this post. I paid a deposit on the Festool a couple of days ago (no stock is held in store), and your news if indicative of all machines is disappointiing.
Are you likely to "...... yet to have a conversation with Carbatec about this. Have to wait til Monday, after I have a conversation with Festool." get resolution, and will you be posting here?
Even a single unit being 'out of whack' is a bad thought with Festool products - as you said they are pricey.

soth

Originally Posted by fraserbluff

Here, for any body interested is a comparison of two routers, one a 20 year old Hitachi M12V and a brand new Festool OF1400.

Before I start comparing the two, I will write up a wish list of what I would consider appropriate for a router for jig work.

Critical
The Base is broad enough to give ample support across the jig.
The Base is on the same plane right across to and including the surrounds of the guide bush.
The Collet is concentric to the base/guidebush.
The Base has at least one straight edge so that the router can be kept steady whilst sliding against the fence.
The Plunge is easy to use (not too hard, and smooth in its use)

Nice
The Plunge lock that can be locked without taking ones hands off the handles.
Soft start and variable speed.
Has a lock on the shaft for one spanner bit removal.
Preferably light and low centre of gravity

I have had the Hitachi for about 20 years, but with age it has developed a small amount of wear on the plunge such that when in the plunged position the bit is a bees dick off center.

I thus looked to buy what I hoped to be a vast improvement on all of the above critical features and opted for a Festool OF1400, specifically for use with a Leigh D4R Jig, I have discovered all is not as it seems.

I have the adaptor plate (Festool 463566) to mount the Carbatec RM 9 guides. (similar to the Porter Cable bushes)

Firstly the cutter shaft on the Festool is not concentric to the base system. It is about 0.15mm off centre, ie the cutter is 0.3mm closer to one side than the other. It just misses the inside of the 5/8 guide bush. I reinserted the Festool adapter plate @ 180 degrees and no difference. I did the same for the centre screwed mounting plate (permanent part of the base plate) and no difference. It is not the guide bush as it can be rotated with out altering the lack of concentricity. Presumably it is the way it is. Given the price and glowing opinions expressed about the Festool stuff, I would have taken it as a given that it would be concentric. I wonder what other people have found?

The Hitachi after 20 years is about the same out when plunged because of wear on the plunge guides.

The Festool Base has two straight edges. A short one that faces the operator if one wants the trigger with the right hand and be able to see and get at the depth settings. This short one runs against the fence for mortises on the Leigh D4R jig. Because it is so short (55mm) it is difficult to keep the Router from rotating off the fence as you slide the route along to do the mortices. Because the router has two straight edges, the longer one is on the opposite side to the fence and the base width under this edge is 10mm, making it less stable than if it had a full circle. You can turn the router around to the long edge against the fence, but then you are operating wrong handed and with the depth setting away from you.

The base is of a lesser diam than the Hitachi and also has a larger cut out in the centre, thus a narrower annulus for support on the jig and thus less fingers to support it. Visibility to the jig through the base is better on the Hitachi. With the Festool I am inclined to peer down under the jig to check clearances and finger location.

Also with the Base, I had assumed that the Festool adaptor plate (463566) when inserted would be at the same level as the base plate, to form a larger bearing surface. It isnt. It was on my old M12V Hitachi, so that you have a bearing surface the full diam of the base and right across the centre.

There is in fact 0.4mm clearance between the base plate and the Festool adapter. When the Guide bush is inserted the clearance between the guide bush "base" and the base plate is 0.63mm. So when you are doing the tenons and the tenon spacing is more than about 40mm (the width of the anulus formed by the base plate of the router is about 35mm), the router is inclined to drop (by about 0.6mm) until the guide bush "base" rests on the finger of the jig. It makes nice little dents on the edge of the tenons.

To sort it I had to pack the guide bush up 0.6mm, (thickness of an ice cream container lid) so that is in the same plane as the base. I have yet to determine if the RM9 Carbatec guide bush here is at fault. (more about that later).

The Festool has the LHS knob as a plunge lock also. It might seem like a good idea, but I think not. When using it on the Leigh jig doing the Tenons, because of the smaller size of the base, you need to slightly twist on the handle to keep a very slight (away from you) moment on the router. Trouble is, this is inclined to release the lock. Picking the router up with one hand is also likely to cause the same result.

The Hitachi has two solid handles with the plunge lock capable of being operated by your left hand pointer finger whilst still holding the router firmly. Hands don’t leave the machine and the knobs never undo, and I can pick it up with one hand with out fear of any thing undoing.

The "plunge feel" on both routers is on par, although a little less depth on the Hitachi
However, I do like the quick stop of the spinning shaft on the Festool though!
As you would imagine I am a little disappointed. For the money it should have been the ants pants. (Trouble is I don’t like the new colours of the Hitachi!)

Getting back to the Carbatec RM 9 Bushes. After two days of trying to get good joints out of the Festool, (the tenons were all too short (in width not height) for the respective mortises), I found the problem.

I had been using my trusty Hitachi, prior to my Festool purchase, and the mortises were passable. When I swapped over to the Festool, I could not get the tenons to fit nicely in the mortices. I fiddled for two days resetting and rechecking all that I could. Nothing I did made any difference. After a long sit down and think I then realised that the only thing that could leave the tenons too narrow was that the guidebush must be under size. The RM9 set, of which I was using the 5/8 (0.625in) bush was in fact 0.610in. This ended up, by the way the jig works, creating a 0.015x4=0.060in gap on each tenon. I have yet to have a conversation with Carbatec about this. Have to wait til Monday, after I have a conversation with Festool.

Cheers
Donald (On the Rock)

Donald, thanks for this thorough and objective review. My own decision was to go for a pair of Makita 3612 routers when I bought my D4R and I have not looked back for a moment. I think they are terrific machines. Accurate, and basically identical in terms of concentricity (though I use only the one machine for through-dovetails). Because there are various sources for Makita, I found that I was able to get the price down to the point where the shops were on the verge of tears.

I opted for the non-variable speed models for use with the dovetail jig for a good reason. First, for hand-held operations, I really never have to slow the router down...the bits I use in hand-held machines are not big enough to require that feature. Soft start up would be nice, but I'm careful to start the machine away from the work.

It will be interesting to read of others' experience. I have 4 routers, and I reckon that they won't be the last ones.

Cheers,
Michael

Originally Posted by masoth

Donald, thanks for this post. I paid a deposit on the Festool a couple of days ago (no stock is held in store), and your news if indicative of all machines is disappointiing.
Are you likely to "...... yet to have a conversation with Carbatec about this. Have to wait til Monday, after I have a conversation with Festool." get resolution, and will you be posting here?
Even a single unit being 'out of whack' is a bad thought with Festool products - as you said they are pricey.

soth

soth

I didnt get the Festool from Carbatec as I have had a bad run with them. If my dealings with Carbatec are representative, I am surprised that they have not followed MIK into that black hole in the ground.

Unfortunately with the Festool, I did break one of my commandments in buying tools. Look and touch it before passing over the funds. Being on "The Rock", and a little impatient, before Xmas, I took the short cut.

I will post any feed back in due course.

Cheers

Donald (On the Rock)

I use the Leigh 711TP and 716TP guidebushes with the OF1400 and do not have the problems described above. While it is possible that the cutter may not be 100% centered, this will negate itself when using the 2 cutters to create a dovetail joint. For M&T joints, that may be another matter.
Les

Les
The issue of the lack of concentricity can be worked around obviously. I just found it difficult to swallow the apparent lack of any manufacturing tolerance in a tool that cost twice of anything else in its "class". If you look at the brochures for the router, Festool sprook the fact that you can alter the depth of cut by 0.1mm by using the fine adjustment. That seems a bit rich when the cutter can be 0.3mm off centre, with no adjustment available. I have poked about the USA forums and this issue has been raised there also. In the US, (and presumably here) Festool dont even recognise that there is an issue, and they clearly do not have a manufacturing tolerance specified (not one that they will tell you about anyway) or accept that there should be one.

The other issues I raised in the first thread may be perhaps subjective, if you like.

I did get the VRS for the Leigh jig to give the OF 1400 a bit more support across the front. Unfortunately I came unstuck here to.

Most of the work that I do currently with the Leigh D4R is using the M2 fingers for tenons and mortices. The VRS can't really be used in this operation. Also with the VRS fitted you loose the graduations down both ends of the "L" brackets to set the Height above the base, which is a bit of a pain.

Cheers

Donald (On the Rock)

Donald,
I can understand your disappointment. The OF1400 is expensive.You had me doubting so I went and did some measurements. With the special guide bush adaptor plate and the Leigh 711TP and a Leigh straight cutter, the concentricity was out by 0.02mm as measured with my digital vernier. This is excellent in any man's book. However, when I put the supplied 30mm guide bush in, it was out by 0.2mm. This may be ok when doing some template routing and possibly not good in other cases. I will contact Festool and see what can be done. I reckon there is a flattish spot on the 30mm guide bush. The reason I say that it may be ok for some template routing, is that one would always hold the router with the same point of contact on the template beig used. The RM 9 guides from CT (I also have a set) are not that good. The ones I have do NOT fit snugly into the adaptor plate. There is some movement. The Leigh 711TP is however a very good fit. If you want to continue with the OF1400/Leigh combination, I suggest that you invest $22 for a 711TP and a 716TP (that is what I paid last year - you will probably be told to pay much more for the stock that has been in the store for the last 2 years due to the falling AUD ).
Regarding your comment about the plunge lock - this is valid and does take some getting used to to avoid the problem of loosening the plunge mechanism while routing. After using the router somewhat, it comes naturally. I guess one was not going to get a perfect router for a lousy $950 . When doing edge trimming with the dust collection set up it is fantastic. I have performed this function indoors without any mess. The VRS on the Leigh is somewhat bothersome. In fact it has affected the accuracy and now I have stopped using it.
Hope this helps
Les

Les

I did in fact get a Leigh 716TP guide bush. ($34 plus postage). . That doesnt help with the lack of concentricity. I have altered the RM9 5/8 bush so that the cutter is now central to the bush. My guess is that the routers will vary as individuals in terms of finished manufactured tolerance, but not the price.

Such is life,

Cheers

Donald (On the Rock)

Donald,
just having another think about this. The problem I have is only with the 30mm guide bush. The adaptor plate is centered. This leads me to believe that in my case the router and it's base is correctly centered. Maybe the adaptor plate you have has a 30mm hole that is not centered.
Les

Les
The adapter plate and the plate that screws to the base plate where concentric. Rotating them individually within their respective bosses neither increased or decreased the problem. The problem presumably is with the plunge slides and or motor frame with the base.

Just sloppy manufacturing which you would normally associate with something 1/4 of the price.

I would doubt that I would buy one knowing what I know now. One needs to check out the likely purchase, individually, before handing over the plastic.

Cheers

Donald (On the Rock)

For someone considering purchase of the Festool OF1400 as well as other Festool stuff
this is a very disappointing report. My proposed purchases are now on indefinite hold.
The comparison with the aged Hitachi and the Festool was revealing. Someone may care to submit a Festool / Ozito comparison.

I, and I suspect many others, now await a response from the Festool authorities giving their explanation for fraserbluff´s observations and perhaps also detailing the manufacturing tolerances for the OF1400.
Cheers,
Jeff

Guys,
understandably one would be disappointed when obtaining the results that Donald has experienced. Festool in fact advertise the accuracy of their routers and one will most definitely have recourse to have the problem remedied. I do not believe that this is a widespread problem. I have no connection with Festool. I have used the OF 1400 at the Perth wood show. My own one and one that belongs to a woodworking tools supplier. Their OF 1400 has been manhandled many times and not looked after as well as mine. Both routers performed with tha same accuracy on the D4R.
I do believe that Donald can contact Festool to have the problem remedied.
On the weekend I used mine to do some edge trimming and had to use 2 router cutters. Being lazy as I am, I inserted 1 of the cutters into the Triton router to save time. When using each router, yhe dust hose was plugged into the Fest vac. The Triton was basically useless when it came to dust collection. The OF 1400 sucked up about 98% (also using the chip deflector as supplied with the router). Did a similar operation indoors a few days earlier and hardly a spec of dust in the kitchen.
The problems experienced can certainly be solved, howecer disappointing it is due to the premium price paid for the OF 1400.
Les

I am most interested to know if Fraserbluff has had any response from either Festool or the retailer from whom he purchased the OF1400 regarding his observations on his recently purchased tool.
Is the particular machine in question just a manufacturing exception or are the sort of tolerances observed by Fraserbluff typical of this model?

Cheers, Jeff

Hi Tisorp,

There are a number of similar stories on other festool websites, so perhaps this is common to all OF 1400.

Cheers,
Af.

Originally Posted by Tisorp

I am most interested to know if Fraserbluff has had any response from either Festool or the retailer from whom he purchased the OF1400 regarding his observations on his recently purchased tool.
Is the particular machine in question just a manufacturing exception or are the sort of tolerances observed by Fraserbluff typical of this model?

Cheers, Jeff

Jeff

As far as I can see Festool don't have a finished manufacturing tolerance for their tools. I haven't contacted them here, but from what I can gather in the US, Festool dont talk about such things. My guess is that it is the same here. The retailer that I bought the tool off has offered to take it back. He was unable to get a satisfactory response out of Festool about these issues also. I have re machined a 5/8 guidebush so that it is now central, so not sure if I will return it, and put it down to experience. My advice to any prospective purchaser is to take a 5/8 guide bush, use the Festool adapter and 1/2in bit, and check out the particular tool. If it is ok then it is ok. Otherwise find another. You don't need a set of verners, it is pretty obvious. If you can see it is out, it is out!

Cheers

Donald (On the Rock)