Thread: 9" grinder which one?

Or in three words:

Lack of leadership

They never printed a book called "Angle Grinders for Dummies" so I guess a lot of people are in the dark...

I simply needed to question why OHS prevents the use of a 9" grinder in the workplace.

If you open a pack of A4 copy paper the wrong way you might end up with a paper cut. Who is liable? What does OHS say about opening a ream of Reflex?

Of course a paper cut would only affect those with SOFT hands... LOL!!!

Or in the word of Ronnie John's 'Chopper': Harden the 'F' up Australia!

SO GET A 9" GRINDER.... if you keep buying them you will increase demand and they won't stop making them!!!

Originally Posted by Gerbilsquasher

The people subcontract management of the country to the government through taxation.

And there is no such thing as an 'accident'... there is always a series of errors and/or missed training opportunities that lead to injury.

Can't argue with that, however you may like to familiarise yourself with the "hierarchy of risk control". Top of the list is elimination. That is the reason that 9 inch grinders are being restricted in many workplaces.
I agree that the reduced cost of tools has now put high powered tools in the hands of the untrained. Worst of all are the steel, circular saw type of cutters sold for use on angle grinders. There is no justification for their use anywhere, anytime, anyhow.
No "accident" is acceptable, for whatever reason. Under new Workplace Health and Safety legislation there are severe fines for individuals for breaching their duty of care and the regulatory bodies have substantial powers - for example, you cannot refuse to answer an inspectors question, whereas you can refuse to answer a police officer. This means that we all better get on board with the safe way of business, the old fallback of "death will make a man of you son" will not hold up in court.
I would not agree that a welder is more dangerous than a grinder at all. I have seen several people bitten by grinders, but a lesser number affected by welders/welding, also the severity of the grinder injuries were greater than those of the welder/welding process. Any risk assessment matrix will rate a hazard with greater frequency and severity higher than one that scores lower on both these aspects.
You may flippantly term the regulator "Wanksafe" and those who heed the safety message "nancyboys", but without people such as these, we would still be working in factories with unguarded flat belts without the benefit of hearing protection and killing workers in the workplace.
Do you realise that even with all the current work safe campaigns etc, there were still 374 Australians killed in the workplace in 2010/11? Those deaths carry a cost to community, fellow workers and individuals. Do you realise that workers compensation does not last for life and may well be diminished if you as an individual have not shown due care?
Have you ever attended a workplace fatality and witnessed first hand the effects on those closely involved? I have.
I am not criticising you as an individual, but your attitude to safety does seem to belong in a bygone era.

We are getting a little off the thread with the safety of 9" grinders, but the whole question of safety is controversial. I work in an industry that is extreme in the safety arena. You can't scratch your ar*e without doing a hazzard assessment. I have constant battles to point out there is apparant safety and real safety.

Safety in the workplace or the home is a culture and ingrained in the mind. An angle grinder used incorrectly is fearsome as it is completely freehand (Compared to a circular saw with it's base plate). I work with a colleague, who is in fact very safety conscious, but despite that, some years ago he cut off his little finger on his left hand using an angle grinder. However he was using it in a way that was never intended. He had a circular saw blade in it .

Just going back to safety, at a safety meeting, I used the following pictures to illustrate the difference between "real" and "apparant."

Alfa Romeo giulia SS.jpgRenault8.jpg


The picture on the left is the very streamlined and sexy looking Alfa Romeo Giulia SS. The picture on the right is the boxy Renault R8 of the same era (about 1965 from memory). The Renault actually has a lower co-efficient of drag. It is the difference between "real" and "apparant." However, I have to say it is the Alfa I covert .

Used correctly and with an awareness of the tool an angle grinder is no worse than many other tools such as a chainsaw (another tool that needs to be used with an understanding of it's potential). An angle grinder used incorrectly, such as another friend, demonstrated cutting a ceramic tile with an angle grinder while holding the tile to the floor with his bare foot, it is going to remove body parts.

Stay safe.
Regards
Paul

Were the 374 persons killed by 9" angle grinders?

An inanimate object is only dangerous in the wrong (ie untrained and inexperienced hands).

People are expected to 'learn as they go' in the workplace. Proper training costs money. Therefore it is easier to ban something than to educate regarding the correct use of an angle grinder of any size.

It is not really my concern whether I can or cannot use a 9" grinder at work, although with my experience I do not see why I couldn't if I so chose. If my trusty Makita packs up I want the option of being able to march into a store and buying one there and then, rather than being told: "Nah mate, they don't make those anymore because of OHS regulations"

And yes... I have seen both sides of the workers compensation. I have a permanent back injury, which came close to leaving me in a wheelchair for the rest of my life. This was caused not by an inanimate object, but by the greed of an employer.

Too many times I have seen 'OHS' used as an excuse to get out of work. I am am not saying that people should work in an unsafe manner.... but then these people will stand around yakking to their mates or stuffing about with their I Phones while they wait for someone else to think of a solution for them rather than devising another way by using their initiative. Of course initiative has been ground out of most people by this stage by being dumbed down and over-regulated.

Of course.... too much regulation of any form makes a business uncompetitive especially on a global playing field. The net effect of all this short sighted knee-jerk implementation of legislation means that Australian manufacturing will cease to exist because it is 'TOO DANGEROUS' but it will be perfectly acceptable for an exploited worker from China or India to pick up a 9" grinder without any training or PPE. It is also okay for Australians to buy cheap stuff from China which is made in factories with no OHS.... when people are injured or die in other countries it's okay if Australians are saving money, is it?

If governments want to make Australians safer in the workplace then they should also make sure that they are also protected by import tariffs so that those businesses are not driven out of existence by cheap imports from countries that ignore OHS.

Of course when we are all unemployed, standing in the line for the soup kitchen will be very safe....

One area where OHS regulation in the workplace seems to have worked is with chainsaws. Prior to making chain brakes mandatory and requiring/promoting/training the use of saws chaps and helmets, most injuries occurred on the legs and a significant number on the head. The number of person days lost to chainsaw injuries in the workplace has since dropped dramatically. In contrast the availability of cheap chainsaws has lead to an increase in the number of DIY injuries especially on the hands - this is almost certainly due to a lack of common sense and training, with DIY'ers thinking they can hold a piece of wood with one hand while using a chainsaw one handed. The same probably applies to angle grinders.

I wonder if cheap training was available whether DIY'ers would take it up? I am surprised that some of the bigger manufacturers don't offer training in both use and safety. Maybe they thing that expanding the safety section of the tool documentation is all they need to cover their liability. OTOH the people most likely to attend these are not the people that probably need to attend.

Hi Bob,
My Husky chainsaw came with an extremely well written safety manual. It was a joy to read and I learned a lot about how to use a chainsaw from that. If all safety manuals were written like that one, I reckon people would be more likely to read them. Alas, most safety manuals are an insult to your intelligence and tend be thrown into the recycling immediately.
Chris

Originally Posted by Karl Robbers

Do you realise that even with all the current work safe campaigns etc, there were still 374 Australians killed in the workplace in 2010/11?

And in 2011 there was 1291 killed in motor vehicle accidents...Yet we still have cars passing each other with 2 metres at 100kph where any deviation of that car into the path of the other car means instant death.... Tell me how acceptable that risk is? Instant death if you move 2m and nothing stopping you from moving...

I believe in OHS, but now OHS is an industry that uses hysteria and scare tactics to grow itself... And grow itself it has, thanks to very rich companies that have money to blow that rather then rock the boat are all too happy to ask "How High" when the OHS industry says "Jump" They have the money do be able to do that.. I don't.....

You cannot eliminate risk, you cannot stop people from doing stupid things.... You can train people all you want and they will still do stupid things.... When working on the wharf you should see the number of "long term experienced" workers that stand under a 20 tonne suspended load...

9 inch angle grinders are safe, provided you use them correctly... You do not use them in any situation where there is any risk of you dropping it and it hitting you if it snags...It is just common sense..

But todays workplaces are that safe, no one thinks anymore and instead run around with their eyes closed....

There is safety, and there is safety... By making stupid rules and regulations what happens people just ignore them over time and when a decent rule is made, people just think it is another stupid regulation and ignore it as well...

One thing the OHS industry never takes into account is human nature, those people see the world as black and white, when instead it is shades of gray...

Oh course the other thing is these rules get made but people will not pay the price of those rules.... Lets say for example 9" grinders are banned, and as such a business has to resort to using 5" grinders, work now takes twice as long.. Costs go up, but the customer will refuse to pay the extra and instead will head off overseas to get their goods where in x country 9" grinders are a free for all.... Where is the safety in that.... Of course it does not matter if overseas workers maim themselves, out of sight, out of mind...

Originally Posted by .RC.

I believe in OHS, but now OHS is an industry that uses hysteria and scare tactics to grow itself... And grow itself it has, thanks to very rich companies that have money to blow that rather then rock the boat are all too happy to ask "How High" when the OHS industry says "Jump" They have the money do be able to do that.. I don't.....

Ahh. A self-serving industry?

But todays workplaces are that safe, no one thinks anymore and instead run around with their eyes closed....

My point about apparant and real safety.

There is safety, and there is safety... By making stupid rules and regulations what happens people just ignore them over time and when a decent rule is made, people just think it is another stupid regulation and ignore it as well...

Overkill?

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by .RC.

And in 2011 there was 1291 killed in motor vehicle accidents...Yet we still have cars passing each other with 2 metres at 100kph where any deviation of that car into the path of the other car means instant death.... Tell me how acceptable that risk is? Instant death if you move 2m and nothing stopping you from moving...

I don't think risk comparisons like this are that useful since two wrongs never made a right. It reminds me of the teenagers argument about why they should not have a wash now because they will will only get dirty again . . . . . . or the smokers defence about having to die of something.

I have said many times on these forums that the riskiest thing that DIY'ers do on a weekend is drive to the hardware store, but this does not mean we should be slack about home workshop safety. The fact that of the 446 grinder accidents I referred to in my post only 14% were wearing PPE says how slack some people are. For the 309 welding accidents only 4% were using PPE, 11% were wearing masks but had them up, 1% were wearing masks but they failed to activate. The use of PPE across all DIY accidents is very poor, less than 10% of persons in DIY accidents are wearing PPE of any kind, let alone wearing PPE appropriate to the task.

I have not seen a recent manual for a 9" grinder, but the page 1 manual on my 120 cc chainsaw does clearly state .

"Warning! This saw is capabale of severe kickbackwhich may cause serious or fatal injury. Onlyfor users with extraordinary cutting needs andexperience and training dealing with kickback.Chainsaws with significantly reduced kickbackpotential are available. STIHL recommendsthe use of STIHL reduced kickback bar andlow kickback chain. "

I do agree with you about the rampant rise of the OHS industry. Where I used to work we went from 4 full time OHS staff (IMHO too few) to about 20, and over 100 other OHS staff reps. The reps do monthly inspections and tick boxes on check sheets. Why? because as long as the boxes on the checklist are ticked the full time OHS staff and the bosses legal arses are covered. Again Paul's point about real versus apparent safety.

A few days before I retired some plumbers were replacing chemical fume hood exhaust fans in the ceiling of our building. One plumber cut a PVC pipe and a few mls of thick brown liquid came out of the pipe. Worked stopped (I have no problem there) and one of the full time OHS staff was called in. It turned out he knew nothing and he wanted to evacuate the building (over 65 staff would be affected) - given the OHS guy had no idea about chemical safety what else could he do. Fortunately one of the techo's called me and I went and had a look and it turned out to be some rusty water.

Originally Posted by jack620

Hi Bob,
My Husky chainsaw came with an extremely well written safety manual. It was a joy to read and I learned a lot about how to use a chainsaw from that. If all safety manuals were written like that one, I reckon people would be more likely to read them. Alas, most safety manuals are an insult to your intelligence and tend be thrown into the recycling immediately.
Chris

I agree, the Chainsaw manuals for Husky and Stihl saw are very well written. Interestingly they follow almost word for word the Australian Standards for chainsaw safety - I have the distinct feeling that the Standards may have even come from the manuals which have a European origin.

To keep SWMBO happy I attended a Chainsaw operators course back in 2007. The course was mostly about safe practices also followed the Standards almost section for section. On reflection I could have given the course, but I now have a ticket for chainsaw operation. As to be expected it means very little in practice - real versus apparent safety again. I recently watched a couple of local council workers (who also need the same ticket to use a chainsaw) cutting up a small tree and their practices left a bit to be desired.

Chainsaw safety (PPE, training and saw design) has come a long way since the 1980s when person days lost by timber fallers were one of the highest in any work sector. This relatively small industry was under pressure to stop using large manually operated chainsaws so they needed to take safety seriously demonstrating that if an area takes charge of itself it can retain control.

Interesting discussion, I'm all for safety, ( obligatory bowing to the safety gods ) but I was forever having arguments with the stupidity of some OH&S people, one time they surrounded a production line with heavy barricades to protect against forklift traffic, ( to seperate forklift traffic from pedestrian traffic) but forgot that engineering and maintenance people needed access across the forklift paths to start and maintain the production machinery... production stopped...

A well know petroleum company sent out safety posters to all their offices in a tightly rolled tube, when unrolled the poster snapped back and some poor office girl got a cut finger from the safety poster... all the safety posters were subject to a safety recall and scrapped....

A production worker in a factory where I worked, caught his hand in the machine and lost a finger, the fact that he had to get down on the floor and put his hand up from underneath the machine to achieve such a feat was irrelevant, we were fined for having an inadequately guarded machine... stupidity doesn't even come close to what this guy did...

I can think of more examples, but that's not the point.. we seem to be more and more being held to account for the stupid actions of others.

Back on topic, my Makita 5" angle grinder died yesterday, less than 12 months old, I've previously had Makita 4" angle grinders that have lasted 20 years or so.. Makita is not what it used to be...

Regards
Ray

This is the definitive word "grinder". Not cutter. If you want to cut steel or stone or tiles then use the appropriate tool. As a grinder they are fairly safe. When used with thin blades to cut is where the trouble starts.

Originally Posted by rat52

This is the definitive word "grinder". Not cutter. If you want to cut steel or stone or tiles then use the appropriate tool. As a grinder they are fairly safe. When used with thin blades to cut is where the trouble starts.

Im not sure I agree. I have used hundreds of thin (1 mm) cut off wheels in angle grinders and a similar number in an old table saw that runs at <1/3 of angle grinder RPMs. I've also used them occasionally from the side as a light grinder. About 1/2 a dozen have lost a chunk or two at speed or snapped off at the arbor mount, not always due to incorrect use, but with no real dramas - not even pierced skin. The broken pieces of these thin cut of wheels have such a low volume/weight to surface area ration so they are aerodynamically braked very quickly once they leave the wheel. In contrast the pieces from thicker wheels have a much greater volume/weight to SA ratio and are not as easily slowed so they are potentially more dangerous. Of course always wear full face shield and ear muffs with these things.

Ray, we all have our OHS stories. We had a major (2 day) safety inspection where I used to work and we got pinged for an untethered gas bottle (fair enough, we do have hundreds of them) and an out of date burn cream in the first aid kit. Guess which received the most detail in the report. The 2500 sqm building was randomly inspected, that took ~1 hour, and the rest of the time was taken up going through policies and procedures.

Hi Bob,
I wonder if the decrease incidents in logging is something to do with feller bunchers?(got my first close up look at one last weekend )
Though I have seen a technique on tv that scares me just a little. Climb the tree delimbing as you go. Top the tree. Repeat for X trees. The saw through from both sides at the base until there is only the thickness of your thumb left. repeat for X trees, leaving them standing. Then bring in a helicopter with a grapple to break them off and fly them out.

As I understand it the biggest problem with 9" grinders is that the wheel is big enough and heavy enough to do damage/kill to other people in the area when they let go. I've only had one 9" cutting wheel jam and let go on me. Having survived unharmed I was some what staggered when other guy came along to use the grinder to cut some concrete. I said "there it is but you'll need a new wheel"(it was a steel wheel BTW). He say "no its right" and went off and started the grinder up with a wheel minus a large chunk and used it on the concrete until with was worn down .

Originally Posted by .RC.

that stand under a 20 tonne suspended load...

Oh come on RC, doent be such a girl, those things almost never bre