Thread: Brass Handwheel?

Don't buy that bronze.. $125 air freight... you can buy it much cheaper locally...

Buy some bronze hollow bar.. http://www.georgewhite.com.au/produc...code=LG2-BLG-H

Or if you'd prefer solid brass..

http://www.georgewhite.com.au/produc...orycode=BR-RLS

Ray

All metals have their characteristics and PhBr is no exception. I wouldn't advise anyone new to metal turning to start on it as I think a lot of material could be wasted before getting a part that you are happy with. PhBr requires well sharpened tooling - a skill in itself.

To make a handle up from solid like you have pictured would not be straight forward either. As well as the lathe to turn the outside you will need a mill with rotary table for the inside (unless you want to spend a lot of time chain drilling and filing) and may be even some special cutters. CNC makes it easier of course but I'd suggest that you are looking at several hours of machine time each. Brass plating is going to be the cheapest way I think.

Michael

Here's another option... http://www.alibaba.com/product-detai...553059286.html

Hi Michael, I've always found brass and bronze very easy to turn, mostly silicon bronze... and probably alloy 360 brass.. is phosphor bronze harder?

Ray

Hold your horses for a bit longer
I think I may have found something for you. Not quite what you imagined, but getting closer. And I'm happy to keep looking - as I'm sure others are.
If you let me know how it should be 'different' or rather 'changed somehow', I'll see what I can do. This is yours if it can be adapted.
Ideally, to help us looking for suitable options, give us the minimum and maximum outside diameter and the spindle diameter and we can go from there. It is possible to build up brass castings by brazing and machine it to get the dimensions right. For example, the brass wheel in the photos is quite thin, but another brass ring could be soldered/silver soldered or brazed on to the back to - say double - the rim thickness and then turned in the lathe to give a round shape like the one you 'imagined'.
If this wheel isn't close enough, I or someone else is sure to find something closer.
IMAG1065.jpgIMAG1066.jpgIMAG1067.jpg

Originally Posted by RayG

I've always found brass and bronze very easy to turn, mostly silicon bronze... and probably alloy 360 brass.. is phosphor bronze harder?

It cuts quite nicely if you have sharp tools. I've found that if tools are not sharp though it rubs rather than cuts poorly.

Michael

Do you want one for yourself, or do you want to start selling them?

If it's just one, buy some bar stock and machine it. It costs what is costs.

If you want lots (10 or more) then it's time to get them cast.

Friend of mine got all his bronze boat fittings cast and it worked out cheaper than buying the expensive ones sold in yacht chandleries (what a surprise).

But - you have to have a pattern. It's not really worth making a pattern for a one-off. Hence the question.

PDW

I am just after 1 for myself.

There's a group of guys all own Robland X31's worldwide in a yahoo email group - who are after about 8 adjusters (so far) in total as "a group buy".

Thus far, no one in the group has put their hand up to make them, from among the group or their contacts.

BobL has kindly offered to make me one for myself (He's not interested in making a batch & I can't blame him for that).

I am trying to figure a way to get 1 brass bronze handle for myself - maybe even something BobL can "have some fun with" if he's a mind too spinning up something that allows him to express some "creativity" (to showcase his skills & ability).

I figure depending on what Bob wants that I either obtain the stock for him Or if he'd prefer NOT to turn a handle I just provide a completed one.

The reason I contemplated 2 was because...



This piece of stock is available on evil bay in the UK for just $46 odd Australian (25UK pounds/euro's)

Trouble is - postage is another $125.00 odd to get it here and at 1&1/2 inches long their might be enough in it maybe to get 2 such wheels in case anyone else (in the batch group) wants one to help me ameliorate the costs.

The idea of modifying brass drain grates is a very good one & perfectly acceptable... no doubt the 6 round holes could have material removed between every second hole in groups of 3 to leave 3 "spokes". and as you say 2 bronzed or silver soldered together and a rim turned to make something similar to what I had envisioned.

This will depend somewhat on What Bob eventually decides he "wants" to do....

I just want to "go along" at the end of the day...

If Bobs not into making the handle, then we will just buy one.

Perhaps at some later point I'll get it plated if I find a place that will do it.

Until I speak with Bob again about how much he wishes to do himself (or not) then i'm keeping my options "open" to just buy one, or get one plated or pay someone else to turn me up one etc.

I don't yet know how fancy BobL wants to go with making this - I don't want to 'push' him into casting one for e.g. (i've seen his forge for example) because I know his time is valuable to him. By the same token - I don't want to prevent him from being as creative as he would like to be!.

If he wants to engrave the darn thing and gold inlay it with his initials - I am good with that - as I'd consider it an "honor" to have something made by Bob....and the 'cost' isn't really a big consideration to me - more-so that he is free to do as mush (or little) as he wants & that I do all I can to give him as many options as possible from buying one in, in steel, and having it plated, to buying in the stock and him spinning it, to me engaging someone else to spin it etc.

I just need to know what's achievable when I next speak with him is all - and some idea of costs.. the best easiest way!

No doubt BobL will have his own ideas and wishes as to how this transpires.. I just want him to have all options available to him and he chooses what ever way he wishes to achieve the eventual outcome. If possible I'd like him to have the freedom of creative scope to do anything he wishes.
I'd like him to have "fun" doing this little job, rather than it be a burden and a bear of a task he wished he hadn't embarked on.

Times not such an issue... nor really is the cost.

Its just ending up with something functional that looks good and Bob enjoys creating.

By doing my "research" ahead of time - I will at least KNOW what hes speaking about rather than being a dumb - ass who he has to walk thru every step of the process...I'd like to do him the honor of at least having SOME knowledge of what he will have to go thru - how I can facilitate him in any way he wishes - by having the material or parts etc available to him that he will need.

I'm open to how I achieve that.

I know Bobs clever and knowledgeable enough to make brass or bronze alloy to his own recipe in his forge if he desired and probably cast anything required, or likely spin anything needed - but that doesn't mean he necessarily wishes to involve himself to that depth in a small / hopefully simple project like this.

Whatever he wants, I'll do my best to facilitate it, by having the materials or parts available, - doing anything I can to make his task as easy (or difficult/complex) or enjoyable (or not) as he wishes.

I don't want to be an "anchor he has to drag along" thru the entire process. I want him to be free to do anything he desires (or not) thru the process. I want to assist him by making anything he might desire in way of materials available if he doesn't already have it. I don't want him to have to waste his valuable time trying this process to obtain requisite materials... I'm trying to be "pro active" about sourcing ahead of time, anything he might require...so that he is free to be creative without 'limitation' from me, on cost or design or materials etc.

If he's the Lone Ranger - then call me Tonto, - I'm "the gopher", (go for this, go for that) willing to do anything required - or go anywhere and spend whatever it costs for HIM to be able to have some fun creating something functional - that at the end of the day - will hopefully make people do a double take and look again - at something with a little WOW factor.

I guess that's pretty much what I'm trying to achieve, if I have to buy in brass or bronze for him, then I shall. If I have to supply my own hand wheel - either turned or plated etc then I shall.

I just don't want to supply something (anything) that takes away from his creativity & skills, because I skimped on the cost to get a good one...or the right one - or provided something butt ugly that looks yuk. At end of the day Bob has the final say as to what goes onto into this little project. I just want to facilitate his experience in any way I can so he gets to enjoy himself thru the process. I don;t want him to have to stress or waste his valuable time sourcing materials he might need - when I have the time to do that for him!

At the end of the day I am pretty flexible - I will go along with whatever Bob wants....and try my best so that this doesn't become something he regrets taking on.

Least that's what I'm thinking at the moment for what it's worth.

I figured if the handle is important to me - then I should do everything within my power to make that "my problem" rather than dumping it on Bob and asking him to come up with something impossible - trying to "please me".

Does that make any sense?

The guy (Brian Lamb) in the US who came up with the design we are copying...no longer makes these and has sanctioned us and anyone else in the group to use his online plans to make this adjuster.

This is what he said about the hand wheel.

You could buy any handle you want…. it just needs to be bored to fit the end of the screw, think that’s 3/8” if I remember correctly. You can search the internet for knurled knobs or something like that, but a few places that come to mind are McMaster-Carr, mscdirect.com, (http://mscdirect.com/) Enco, Mortonmachine.com (http://mortonmachine.com/) and there are plenty more.



The one thing you need to be careful of is the over all height of the hand wheel, if I remember correctly I used a lever style handle and had to bend the lever down so it wouldn’t interfere with material on the table.

These are photos of installing the last batch of these made by Brian for the last group buy.





This is a link to the plans for the parts.

http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/X...sterFiles.html

You can see that the hand wheel design isn't "specified" - you select your own around 3 - 4 inches diameter and as long as the knob isn't too tall and protrudes above the table height your good to go!.

As Brian said I think he had a taller knob that folded flat on his...to sit below table height - and that's an option, OR the fat flat type knob depicted in the my minds eye photo above off the old fire engine hopefully would sit flat enough to not protrude above table top height.

Who'd think that finding a hand wheel would be a "Bigger than Ben Hur" operation eh?.

On the electroplating idea. Brass is an alloy of Copper and Zinc. The two metals do electroplate at different voltages, meaning that you will only plate one metal onto another, until this is exhausted. Then the voltage goes up and you electroplate the other metal. One layer over another is not the result that you wanted. There are tricks using high currents and toxic cyanide baths to deposit both metals together, but it is not easy to control the process and the quality of the end result may not be good enough.

But are you really locked-in into that brass look? You know, if you do not coat polished Brass with clear Zapon lacquer it very soon discolours. Its called a "patina", some people like an antique looking patina others think it looks cheap and dirty. If you handle it a lot like you will a handwheel, the laquer will wear off soon, looking even worse than if you left the brass uncoated with a natural patina. If you were not completely locked-in to a brass look, how about copper plating? Copper plating is very simple and easy to do DIY. Copper too will acquire a patina, just like brass.

If you are locked-into this "golden" brass look... by now you have found out that a suitable size slice of brass or bronze is not cheap, and it takes a bit of work to turn/mill into a nice handwheel. Would you consider buying a suitable off the shelf and cheap steel handwheel, and have it..... (please do not laugh or discard the idea thinking it is far too expensive).... and have it gold electroplated instead? Seriously, think about it, gold looks very much like brass yet it will not oxidize and turn dark. And I would think a few microns of pure Gold coating is not as expensive as making a one off brass handwheel. Maybe ask a jeweler if he could electroplate your wheel. Or if more adventurous, there are DIY Gold plating kits.

Chris

Chris it's a great idea and yes I'd be happy with gold electroplating it.

I actually have a couple small raw gold nuggets picked up out in the Yilgarn Goldfields...some years back - that I would happily contribute if that's the way to go.

I have no idea being "raw gold" if they would work O.K. in the electroplating process for gold - I imagine that impurities like copper silver etc within them would require different chemicals and voltages to be electroplated (due to differing valence), so in theory, at least maybe possible?.

No idea how ones refines them to make them suitable for plating if that's required. I've hung onto them with the idea of using them for tuning/ground balancing a metal detector one day!.

I think I have some old scrap gold (cuff links & tie pins etc) from old jewellery here as well from memory that might work?.

Is it something I could do easily at home DIY?

TIA

I have no practical experience at Gold plating. Except the chemical plating method that is used in electronics to plate the contact strips of circuit boards. But I never tried Gold electroplating.
I think you first would have to electroplate your steel handwhhel with Copper. Copper is easy to apply and has an excellent adhesion. Then you need to add a coat of Nickel that prevents copper atoms to over time diffuse into the thin Gold layer and cause discoloration. You do not want your handwheel to look like a fake Chinese $50 Rolex watch after a couple years. Do a Google search, there are many sources for Gold plating. This is just an overview: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_plating. In doubt, ask a jeweler if he can do it for you.

Scrap gold from old jewellry may not be ideally suited. For one it could be just plated a few microns, and Silver underneath. But second, jewelry is never pure (24K) Gold, but most usually an 18K alloy (18k=75% Gold content, the remainder are metals to give it a particular color like Rhodium to make White Gold or Copper to make it Red Gold). Pure gold would also be too soft for jewelry. And Gold jewelry for kids is often only 9K, so to keep it affordable to teenagers. Your nuggets could be purer than you think, the average Gold contents in a nugget is 85-90%. They say the more orange it looks, the higher the content.

I've bought from these guys before -
http://www.ddbarry.com.au/

If you go to the product range tab you will see just about every knob, handle and wheel that you would ever need (and then some). Personally I like the Elesa range

Michael

Yes,



Something like this from DD Barry - if I changed the rotating knob to be fat and squat to reduce overall height would probably be fine.

I could plate it at any subsequent time..

Maybe have a couple test runs on copper plating then nickel plating.

I'm cursing coz years ago there was a "Irwell" tap electro - plating factory just down the road a ways from me....and sometimes if you asked nicely & supplied the universal "nectar of the gods" universal elixir of life in sufficient quantity for the boys on the shop floor they would "hang" small "extras" in their bath when they were plating things... and wed get a lot of parts for cars done with copper then chrome back in the day.

I remember a mate lived across the road from me & myself rebuilt a old 351 cleveland block that had been donated by Ford to the tafe college for apprentice training that he bought cheap at tender - coz it had a 4 bolt mains solid steel crank in it!.

It was for his 1975 XB Coupe...

We painted it fireproof white... adjustable push rods (coz we couldn't afford roller rockers) and sold lifters, Holley 780 spread bore 4 barrel on a high rise manifold - and we took off anything not bolted down and got it chromed... bonnet hinges and springs.... sump, rocker covers, air cleaner, brake cylinder lid, all the bolts in the gutter of the mudguards under the hood, the bonnet catch and spring etc.

All the chrome stuff went thru the Irwell tap electroplating baths...
It was pretty bling with a fireproof white block and all that chrome under the hood.
Went like stink too. Cost a lot of cartons from memory & created a lot of morning after headaches too!.

Sorry - rambling.

Have to see what I can do about home electro plating I guess. Copper shouldn't be too hard to do I'd imagine.... Nickle might be a little tougher to come bye. Gold I have some of.

Could be a fun little project - my luck I'll blow up the shed or make fumes my neighbors mistake for a clandestine meth lab!

Another option for plating that will stand up to everything is the titanium nitride they put on cutting tools. You have companies in Aussie that re-plate sharpened tools and might do it. It may be cheaper than gold, maybe not. Get ahold of some and see.

Pete

TT I would think, but could be proved wrong, that you would get plenty of bronze to cast a wheel or alternatively cast a blank to machine your wheel from a scrap dealer much cheaper than buying new bar stock. If you are able to cast either wheel or a machinable blank, old bronze gate valve bodies might be the go. As far as I know, many gate valves use bronze for the body, but may use brass for the gate and spindle. The bodies have a reddish brass colour while the gate and spindle will be more yellow. For your application it may not matter if you used the whole lot, but it may be more difficult to machine, - I don't know but others will jump in hopefully and inform us all.
Did you particularly want to use Phosphor Bronze for any reason? The reason I ask it is a slightly specialised copper alloy, and might be a bit more expensive than more garden variety brasses, again I can't say for sure, but I suspect that it may be the case. I would think that any brass / bronze alloy would be strong enough, but other issues such as colour or ease of machining may be upper-most in your thinking on this. good luck with your project anyway, and brass or bronze, brass plated or plated in gold, you have a good range of options to choose from, and some with lots of cachet to boot!
Rob.