Thread: Are Chinese machines really improving?

Originally Posted by cba_melbourne

Hobbylathes and hobbymills? Myford went broke not long ago, because too few of us were prepared to pay $10k for a 7" swing lathe. It is sad, but most of us rather buy a $1k AL50 and live with its poor quality.

The unstated assumption I pick up here is that a $10K Myford was value for money. IMO it wasn't and they richly deserved to go broke, just as South Bend did trying to sell a 1940's design machine at an enormous price. I don't shed any tears for them. Ditto Hercus.

Let's face it, you're not comparing apples with apples here. The choice isn't between a feeble but superb build quality machine (Myford) and a POS like an AL50 with the same theoretical capacity (work envelope). It's between what you can get for $10K from Myford and the same amount elsewhere, in which case the Myford shows up as what it is - way overpriced and feeble.

Once you get to the $8-10K price point, there are some quite nice brand new machines available to you, even from H&F.

I saw a couple Taiwanese build machines go at auction a few weeks back. These were built in the 80's and had been well looked after in a private workshop. The 12x36 lathe with TA sold for $2800 and the 30 taper H/V mill for $2600. Well worth the money, too.

PDW

Originally Posted by jhovel

the quality of Chinese manufactured goods including machine tools is improving dramatically over the past few years.
remember this is a communist country we are talking about: the State owns the factories and workers at all levels are just people who turn up, do what they are told to do and leave again - foreign concepts, just like for fruit pickers or garbos, no offense intended.

Seems like you're trying to have it both ways there Joe, you're blaming the "communist system"(we can argue about that somewhere else lol) for making krap, yet you say they do make good lathes??

I wouldnt limit "job satisfaction or pride in their work are optional" to just fruit pickers and garbos, certainly not in Australia.

Originally Posted by Ueee

I think you all know my stand on these machines. I wouldn't buy another one. If i had money to splash on a new machine i'd buy something decent second hand and pay someone like MTA to reco it. Unless of course i had a spare 100k....

But you arent really comparing apples with apples.
Lets say all your machines turned to rust tomorrow, defying the laws of physics and chemistry as we know it.
What would it cost to replace them... tomorrow, new, with machines of the same ball park quality?
How many people here paid $11k for a Hercus..............dont get me wrong I dont have to much against a Hercus, but there is very little chance I would have coughed up that sort of money for one. Sure a Rolls Royce is better than a KIA in many ways..but we dont all drive RR's.(and if we did I'm sure there would be threads on how much better Bentleys are.)

Even then.... you cant blame it on the Chinese. Just like Japan, then Honk Kong, then Tawian(do I have the last two the right way around?) before them they make what we pay for until it becomes cheaper to make it somewhere else.....where we go after China? Who feels like investing in building a factory in Africa?

Stuart

Originally Posted by nearnexus

That would be defying the laws of physics and chemistry as we know it.

Rob

I'm sure there is a joke in there somewhere, I just can't see it.

Ew

[QUOTE=PDW;1784004]The unstated assumption I pick up here is that a $10K Myford was value for money. IMO it wasn't and they richly deserved to go broke, just as South Bend did trying to sell a 1940's design machine at an enormous price. I don't shed any tears for them. Ditto Hercus............................/QUOTE]

Both Myford and Southbend would make newer machine designs today, if they still existed and saw a chance to survive. Myford actually did a serious try with the model 254. The 254 looked very much like todays Chinese lathes do, you could certainly not say they deserved to go broke because of this design:
Attachment 317302


My point is that to make a lathe like 7" Myford or 9" Southbend or 9" Hercus today, with UK or US or Australian current wage level and productivity would lead to a product retail price of around $10-12k without any accessories. A similar lathe made in Taiwan with their wage/productivity (like todays Southbends made by Grizzly in Taiwan) cost about half that much. The same in China maybe $2k, and in India it would cost even less. Of course its not the same quality. There is more than just labor cost and productivity to it. The workers at Myford were skilled at what they did, and they certainly took more pride in what they did They grew up in a world that had an engineering tradition with much higher standards as for what represents "good quality, fit and finish". It takes more than one generation to grow and nurture such a workforce. I have no doubt in 20 more years the Chinese will be there too, but heir wages will have gone up too and their pride too, so I predict they will not even want to make cheap crap for us anymore. Like the Japanese, they will want to make the best product there is.

Right now the problem is us. By selfishly choosing to buy the cheapest machine there is, regardless if fit for the job or in need much "tender loving care" before becoming at all usable. Regardless if we contribute to exploit the workers that make it. Instead of paying the price it takes for a machine that works out of the box, and allows its makers to earn a decent wage in a healthy and safe environment - like we like to for ourseves too.

I am the Australian Agent for Anyang Power Hammers www.anyangaustralia.com.au , the machines are are robust and well made but there is room for improvement. They are an older design but sound.
I have found the company quite willing to take on board advice and make changes leading to improvements. I have visited the plant in China and whilst some of it is rooted in the 1950s the vast majority of their factories are quite modern with a big range of CNC Machines. The older factory is slated for closure very soon when it will move into a modern complex.
From my experience I have found the people at the factory to be people of integrity and they want to do a good job, however it does take time to work through things so that they appreciate what a western consumer (even a hobbyiest) expects as acceptable quality. They have a very large domestic market and I suspect it still very much operates along the established lines of the old regime in practice. You buy your bearings from Factory 'X' and sell your product to factory A,B & C. Anyang Forging Press Machinery Co has been in business since 1956.
I do not believe you can buy a better power hammer for the money, their main competitors come out of Turkey and they are more expensive and the quality is no better, the German machines are very similar design to the Turkish ones but twice the price (the German machines were the parent of the Turkish Hammers). If I wanted a Rolls Royce of Hammers I would buy a Massey but they haven't been made for 40 years or thereabouts.
Sp the options are buy a Chinese Hammer and work on improvements to a good basic design or buy a secondhand Massey (They are a few about but all have not been looked after properly and get it going) the price will be the same or more than a brand new Anyang but parts will be considerably more expensive and working on them is much more specialised. I preferred to buy a basic machine that I could work on with basic tools if needed and be out in the shed forging away and enjoying myself.
On the note of Indian quality, I was at a friends place the other day and he had an Indian Flypress, I had seen these advertised in the USA and often wondered about the quality of them. This Flypress was very well made and I could not fault the casting. In comparison some time ago I purchased two Norton Flypresses one for me and one for a mate, Norton have a very good name in the UK (made in the UK) and the six ton one I got for my mate was very good but the 4 ton one I kept for myself, well the casting has pores, mismatch and is generally rough. It just shows even reputable brands can be questionable sometimes.
Why didn't I keep the 6 ton one? I already have a good Australian made 6 ton John Heine and an Australian AP Lever (Mascot) that is a bit bigger, the 4 ton fitted in the range, that's all. I also prefer the method used for clamping the die shank on the Australian ones. I often wonder if it was an Australian invention as all the flypress brands that I have seen that were made here all use the same clamping method. John Heine, Wagner Bros. AP Lever, Accro.

Just because it is made in India or China doesn't automatically make it bad, others have already touched on this and good quality is available.

This is my two cents worth on the discussion.

Cheers.

[QUOTE=cba_melbourne;1784030]

Originally Posted by PDW

The unstated assumption I pick up here is that a $10K Myford was value for money. IMO it wasn't and they richly deserved to go broke, just as South Bend did trying to sell a 1940's design machine at an enormous price. I don't shed any tears for them. Ditto Hercus............................/QUOTE]

Both Myford and Southbend would make newer machine designs today, if they still existed and saw a chance to survive. Myford actually did a serious try with the model 254. The 254 looked very much like todays Chinese lathes do, you could certainly not say they deserved to go broke because of this design:
Attachment 317302


My point is that to make a lathe like 7" Myford or 9" Southbend or 9" Hercus today, with UK or US or Australian current wage level and productivity would lead to a product retail price of around $10-12k without any accessories. A similar lathe made in Taiwan with their wage/productivity (like todays Southbends made by Grizzly in Taiwan) cost about half that much. The same in China maybe $2k, and in India it would cost even less. Of course its not the same quality. There is more than just labor cost and productivity to it. The workers at Myford were skilled at what they did, and they certainly took more pride in what they did They grew up in a world that had an engineering tradition with much higher standards as for what represents "good quality, fit and finish". It takes more than one generation to grow and nurture such a workforce. I have no doubt in 20 more years the Chinese will be there too, but heir wages will have gone up too and their pride too, so I predict they will not even want to make cheap crap for us anymore. Like the Japanese, they will want to make the best product there is.

Right now the problem is us. By selfishly choosing to buy the cheapest machine there is, regardless if fit for the job or in need much "tender loving care" before becoming at all usable. Regardless if we contribute to exploit the workers that make it. Instead of paying the price it takes for a machine that works out of the box, and allows its makers to earn a decent wage in a healthy and safe environment - like we like to for ourseves too.

You can get a machine that works out of the box right now. Just that it costs $6K and upwards, not $1500 or less. It's made in China or Taiwan. Basically, still half the price of a Myford since we seem to be using that as a yardstick, but with a work envelope of around 400 x 1000, camlock chuck, MT3 tailstock, 40mm spindle bore, 8 speed or more geared head and fully tooled with faceplate, chucks and steadies. I know this because I bought one from H&F at my last place of employment. It was one of these:

http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/L242D

and I can tell you that I and all my staff would take one of those over any small Myford ever built, at any time. It was quite a nice machine and if I were in the market for a new lathe, it's what I'd personally be looking to buy.

So I'm afraid that your view on things differs considerably from mine.

English, Australian, USA toolmakers either rested on their ancient laurels or chose to abandon the small machine tool market as a deliberate business decision. Those resting on their laurels in the main just went on selling the same old thing at ever increasing prices (600 Machinery comes to mind), ignoring both demand and price sensitivity. So they're out of business, so sad, too bad. It didn't have to be that way, it was their choice.

About 15 years ago, perhaps more, I had my hands on a copy of a Myford lathe. It wasn't as nicely finished or as accurate, but it was about 1/5 of the price. For its intended use - auto electrical work - it was fine. Myford had priced themselves out of this market. Ditto South Bend and their close copies like Hercus.

I don't care what those companies could have done. The fact is, they DIDN'T do what was needful. If they had invested in advanced CNC machinery to mass produce lathes, maybe we'd have machines that are much better than we have for the $5K-10K price point today. It is possible.

The Aussie importers piggy-backed off of USA demand for the most part and got machines that were quite adequate from Taiwan, Japan & Korea back in the 80's and 90's. They sold those machines with a bigger work envelope, camlock spindles, power feeds and equipped with chucks & steadies for approx 1/5 what South Bend was asking for a bare flat bed, flat belt drive machine. None of the established machine tool makers wanted to know about the hobbyist & small business market.

So more power to the Chinese as far as I'm concerned. If it wasn't for them we'd all be fighting over a diminishing supply of old machines. That would be annoying as I like the older machinery myself and the price would go up.

It's all very well saying we're selfish by buying their machines but equally I can say that the old manufacturers were greedy, inwards looking and totally contemptuous of their customer base. You have your opinion, I have mine.

I don't think much of the low end Chinese machines, but hey, better one of those than no lathe at all.

PDW

It was the high end rules and regulations that killed off the likes of Hercus lathes and such as much as legislated high wages..

The Hercus 260 was a fine machine within it's work envelope... Sure some parts of it were a bit outdated, but it was a capable machine... But when you bring in rules that factories have to have industrial standards way higher then an overseas shop.. That the company cannot just dump it's waste chemicals in the storm water drain.. That the shop has to pay it's workers a set standard amount with legislated benefits and such...

Oh and by the way, we are going to allow in goods from overseas where the factories there can dump their waste wherever they like, polluting whoever they like.. Does not matter how dangerous the factory is... If one person is maimed for each lathe built, not the problem of the Australian importer or buyer..

Essentially the rules said that we cannot poo in our own backyard, but it is quite OK to poo in someone else's.. It is a hypocritical position to hold...

Which in the end will be our downfall.... I have a working theory that the more low skilled jobs we remove from this country the greater number of unemployed and disenfranchised people we will have... Australia is no different to other countries.. We all have people capable of high end jobs, and we all have people only capable of low end jobs.... If we get rid of all the low end jobs, what opportunities does that leave for these people? They end up on welfare for life, it creates societal problems like alcoholism, depression, crime, ghetto type suburbs, plus these people through no fault of their own are resented by the society that quite joyfully removed their productive jobs to begin with...

When the car industry goes, get ready for a whole new tens of thousands of people that will be put permanently on welfare..

Originally Posted by .RC.

If we get rid of all the low end jobs, what opportunities does that leave for these people? They end up on welfare for life, it creates societal problems like alcoholism, depression, crime, ghetto type suburbs, plus these people through no fault of their own are resented by the society that quite joyfully removed their productive jobs to begin with...

When the car industry goes, get ready for a whole new tens of thousands of people that will be put permanently on welfare..

I totally agree with you, so I expect you to join with me in bringing back sailing ships only for cargo transport, and eliminate all mechanisation on Australian rural properties. After all, think of all the farm labourers we no longer employ. Not to mention farriers and blacksmiths.

Back in the 1800s the city:country ratio was about 1:5 or less. Now it's 10:1 or more in 1st World countries.

Return to the land, I say. Let's vote for Rockhampton to lead the way.

BTW, RC, that means you can't have anything as new-fangled as a 1942 Monarch lathe. Nothing above a cone head flat belt driven by a lineshaft for you. Fortunately for you, I have one I can swap.....

PDW

I think most of us start with Chinese/Asian type machines. They are cheap entry type machines and more than adequate for what we want to do to begin with. As time goes by we start to see their deficiencies. As we become more confident in knowing what we want, we start to move into the second hand market. There are some great bargins to be had but also some great traps. You need to be patient, keep a good lookout and be prepared to travel,ask questions and look critically at the machine. You also need to be prepared to walk away. This can be difficult with Ebay and Graysonline and sometimes you need to take a punt but this can be factored into the price. I have met some great people buying second hand machinery and this can be part of the fun. After 15 plus years I sold my last Asian machines recently and I was a little sad to see them go. Sure I have far better machines now but I had a soft spot for my first lathe and mill.

Originally Posted by .RC.

When the car industry goes, get ready for a whole new tens of thousands of people that will be put permanently on welfare..

Also a flood of engineering auctions. I think we are living through a golden age for second hand manual machine tools, we have the collapse of manufacturing industry and the rise of new generation CNC.. 10 years from now we will look back and marvel at DSG's going for $2000, Cinci mills for under $1000.. Huron mill the other day for $2600...

On the other hand.. I'd like my next machine to be a multi axis CNC grinder..

Ray

Originally Posted by PDW

so I expect you to join with me in bringing back sailing ships only for cargo transport, and eliminate all mechanisation on Australian rural properties.

No that is not what I was saying in my post...

I was saying the extreme rush to get the lowest cost, may in fact at the end of the day, be costing us more..

For example, whatever the cost to taxpayer subsidisation is for the car industry (and every country seems to subsidise their car industry)... What will be the cost to the taxpayer after the industry is gone? We will federally spend this year something like $130 billion on welfare alone...

At the end of the day we still need a fair proportion of low skilled jobs to exist.. And we need to stop being hypocritical when it comes to saying we cannot do x to produce y here, but if you want to do x in <insert country here> then import y here, then that is acceptable...

I have read in other forums much outrage with the WA gas project wishing to use low cost workers on the off shore gas plants...I often think, how can anyone be outraged over that and at the same time, love imported cheap consumer goods that have displaced au workers...

And for every few low skilled jobs, there are bound to be higher skilled jobs out there to support them.. I do not mean OHS officers, but things like engineers and high skilled maintenance people, technology specialists etc etc...

Interesting, but this thread is rather drifting away from the topic

Originally Posted by Big Shed

Interesting, but this thread is rather drifting away from the topic

Yes - possibly for the better.

"I think most of us start with Chinese/Asian type machines".
No, I started with a Myford and was glad to see the back of it.
Regards,
Martin