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  1. #31
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    Default Made in japan

    Hi

    In the era of our parents generation , the populace used the derogatory slogan " made in japan " this slogan was used to describe something manufactured of very low quality . Well, the Japanese showed us what they could do with aircraft like the Zero and more ! I believe Japanese machinery is among the best available. The Chinese will catch up . Mike

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  3. #32
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    I'm always amused when someone says that buying cheap Chinese made whatever is the cause of death of local manufacturing. Personally, if I wasn't able to buy a cheap Chinese whatever it is, I'm certainly not going to buy a new locally manufactured one - I simply can't afford it. Which leaves me with three options:

    1. Go without
    2. Make my own
    3. Buy a used one.

    Really can't see any of those options doing much for local manufacturing...

  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by morrisman View Post
    Hi

    In the era of our parents generation , the populace used the derogatory slogan " made in japan " this slogan was used to describe something manufactured of very low quality . Well, the Japanese showed us what they could do with aircraft like the Zero and more ! I believe Japanese machinery is among the best available. The Chinese will catch up . Mike
    I see one difference is that the Japanese created indigenous designs.... I see a lot of Chinese stuff is just clones... Cloning is easy, but if you do not know why something was designed the way it was, then how can you improve on it?
    Light red, the colour of choice for the discerning man.

  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by .RC. View Post
    I see one difference is that the Japanese created indigenous designs.... I see a lot of Chinese stuff is just clones... Cloning is easy, but if you do not know why something was designed the way it was, then how can you improve on it?
    Yeah, they do *these days*. I've got over 20 years on you so my perspective is a bit different as I can remember the crap they made in the 50's and 60's.

    They bootstrapped out of it, China will as well.

    We've done this argument to death on PM, it's really boring.

    PDW

  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by .RC. View Post
    I see one difference is that the Japanese created indigenous designs.... I see a lot of Chinese stuff is just clones...
    Yes, Japanese cars and bikes of the 60's and early 70's were not that good or well made (I owned both). But they surely had very own and different ideas. Definitely not just clones. And they have catched up fast, have they? Remember their first cameras, the first Sony transistor radios? And now made in Japan is synonimous with some of the best and most consistant quality.

    Quote Originally Posted by .RC. View Post
    Cloning is easy, but if you do not know why something was designed the way it was, then how can you improve on it?
    This is so true when it comes to metal lathes. If you do not know why something was designed the way it was, then how can you make it work the same (let alone improving). You cannot copy a design and replace precision cast steel parts with softest cast iron of the metallurgy of melted soup cans, and expect it to perform the same or to last as long before bending or cracking. You cannot replace a bronze bushing for brass and expect it not to seize up. If you replace a spindle that was case hardened and ground by a same spindle that is neither hardened nor ground, you end up with more runout and much faster wear. You cannot replace a precision spindle bearing by a wheel barrow bearing and expext a clean surface finish. If you replace hardened precision ground gears with soft junk gears you end up with a noisy headstock. etc etc. There are so many more examples.

  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by .RC. View Post
    Cloning is easy, but if you do not know why something was designed the way it was, then how can you improve on it?
    Ummm, are we talking about Japanese, Chinese or Australian machines? The way I see it, that applied to Hercus, Dawn, Waldown, Servian, Herless and many many other Australian mavchine tool manufacturers. I wonder if that argument is actually true and - god-forbid - one of the reasons why they are not made here any more.... Brobo Waldown is an exception, actually: they ditched the old desings and are making modern machines they DEVELOPED from them. And they are in Business, albeit just, because we STILL don't want to pay for the difference between in quality.... Entry level drill press about $800....
    Interesting comparison, I'd say....
    Hercus tried hard with the 260 and then the Compucut - which should have worked in the market but was thought to be too expensive and 'new-fangled' too..... "Machinists will never use computers in the factory.... don't be silly".
    I was told the same thing when I took a programming subject as an elective for my health science degree "We won't give you study leave for that! There will never be a use for computers in nursing!" (Director oif Nursing in my hospital, 1988)....
    Cheers,
    Joe
    9"thicknesser/planer, 12" bench saw, 2Hp Dusty, 5/8" Drill press, 10" Makita drop saw, 2Hp Makita outer, the usual power tools and carpentry hand tools...

  8. #37
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    Agree that China will build whatever we are willing to pay for. Around 20 years ago I bought at a Gov't auction a Chinese HG28 (280 X 750) lathe made by Shanghai Chiang Ning Machine Tool Works. It had already seen quite a bit of work in a semi-gov't shop, and came with a good set of tools and accessories. It was sold and serviced by one of WA's biggest machine tool suppliers.
    For the next 10 years it saw service in my son's Auto Elec shop and also did some heavy work for my earthmoving operation. There is no way I could fault this machine. It is a geared head design with excellent speed ranges, coolant system, solid cast iron cabinet base and weighs in round 1.2 tonnes. There is no way that was a "cheap" machine when sold say 25 years ago. I now have it in my retirement hobby shop and it is still very accurate and a pleasure to use. Presume it was value for money when bought via Gov't tendering process at the time. This was round the time when the El Cheapo stuff was starting to arrive in quantity, so it says to me, as others here observed, that China will build whatever the market wants, and "Ya gets what ya pays for". Regards,
    Combustor.
    Old iron in the Outback, Kimberley WA.

  9. #38
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    "Ya gets what ya pays for"
    I agree with Combustor, Some of the early Chinese imports were of excellent quality and were not particularly cheap, about 1980 I purchased a Tengxian drill press from a small importer in Carlton, at the time the price was about half way between a Taiwanese unit and a Waldown, the quality of construction and finish is easily the equal of a Waldown (Heresy, stone him !!!). In 34 years of use and abuse the only parts replaced have been the drive belts (about 2 years ago) I think a pair of belts every 30 years or so is a fair thing. Without flogging a dead horse any further, the Chinese or Indians or any other nationality will produce whatever quality our importers and consumers demand.
    Regards,
    Martin

  10. #39
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    Default Japanese cars original?

    Quote Originally Posted by .RC. View Post
    I see one difference is that the Japanese created indigenous designs.... I see a lot of Chinese stuff is just clones... Cloning is easy, but if you do not know why something was designed the way it was, then how can you improve on it?
    The Japanese when they started car manufacture after WW11 bought licences from Austin, Hillman and Renault from memory.
    What they did do was invest in development and improvement and they also had US funded new machinery(Germany similar re the Marshall plan) any thing to stop them going red or support a nearby war(Korea).
    The poor old Poms of course had their bombed out factories and outdated machinery and work practises. Including hand fitting components rather than machining them accurately to start with.( Oz Lee Enfield made with US machinery re Pom hand made crap).
    Im restoring a 59 Mazda 3 wheel ute and its as weird as it gets but all the nuts and bolts were cad plated when did the Poms et all do this.
    I have a Chinese vernier height gauge bought from Demco years ago and it's nearly as good as a Mitutoyo let alone Starrett it's all satin chrome of course.Its the only Chinese thing I have in the shed, rest are all 2nd hand Oz Pom or US. I do have 3 phase and a fair bit of room.
    H.
    Jimcracks for the rich and/or wealthy. (aka GKB '88)

  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by toolman49 View Post
    "Ya gets what ya pays for"

    Regards,
    Martin
    Sometimes you don't get much.

    Remember the Pommy Jag cars of the 70's and 80s ?

    Cost plenty, and were so bad you were lucky to make it to the shop and back for a packet of fags.

    If you bought a V12 they tossed in free life time psychiatric help.

    As for Chinese only copying stuff, looking at the huge range of small lathes they make, most are not clones at all, eg my CQ9325 is a good example, so I don't subscribe to that theory literally.

    Rob
    The worst that can happen is you will fail.
    But at least you tried.



  12. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by nearnexus View Post
    Sometimes you don't get much.

    Remember the Pommy Jag cars of the 70's and 80s ?

    Cost plenty, and were so bad you were lucky to make it to the shop and back for a packet of fags.

    If you bought a V12 they tossed in free life time psychiatric help.

    As for Chinese only copying stuff, looking at the huge rage of small lathes they make, most are not clones at all, eg my CQ9325 is a good example, so I don't subscribe to that theory literally.

    Rob
    Yes, I still have the mental scars to prove I was once stupid enough to buy a Rover SD1.

    Now there was a real tribute to "pommy work practices" or rather their unions (which they then exported to Oz).

  13. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Shed View Post
    Yes, I still have the mental scars to prove I was once stupid enough to buy a Rover SD1.
    My cousin bought one of those. Whenever the sun came out it overheated.

    Rob
    The worst that can happen is you will fail.
    But at least you tried.



  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by nearnexus View Post
    My cousin bought one of those. Whenever the sun came out it overheated.

    Rob
    Which of course was a problem they never experienced over there.

    At least the Chinese manage to produce motor bikes that don't leak oil.

    Whenever you saw a pommy bike that didn't leak oil it was because the sump was empty.

    I think it is all too easy to be disparaging about Chinese made stuff, fact of the matter is that even the expensive machinery and cars etc are now full of Chinese made components.
    Easy to be disparaging about our Chinese cousins, but guess what - they are laughing all the way to the bank - and we don't have any manufacturing left to speak of.

  15. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Shed View Post
    Yes, I still have the mental scars to prove I was once stupid enough to buy a Rover SD1.

    Now there was a real tribute to "pommy work practices" or rather their unions (which they then exported to Oz).
    The 3 worst vehicles I ever owned were a Mini, a Land Rover and a Range Rover. That cured me of British vehicles for life.

    OTOH I bought a Mitsubishi L200 4WD utility in 1982 and drove it for 30 years without any major mechanical issues. Only retired it because there was more rust than body panels - it had a hard life.

    The Chinese Great Wall utilities look at least adequate to good, not sure how their warranty claims are going, but if I wasn't wealthy enough to buy an Isuzu or Toyota (likely made in Thailand) I'd be looking at one very closely.

    I have a lot of time for Chinese machinery in general. Some is outstanding, a lot is at least adequate and of course some is downright pathetic. On that note, though, they have no monopoly - I still own a 12" Paulcall wood bandsaw and I'd take a Chinese one over it any day. In fact if anyone thinks differently, drop me a line and I'll swap you.....

    PDW

  16. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    .....................................................
    You can get a machine that works out of the box right now. Just that it costs $6K and upwards, not $1500 or less. It's made in China or Taiwan. Basically, still half the price of a Myford since we seem to be using that as a yardstick, but with a work envelope of around 400 x 1000, camlock chuck, MT3 tailstock, 40mm spindle bore, 8 speed or more geared head and fully tooled with faceplate, chucks and steadies. I know this because I bought one from H&F at my last place of employment. It was one of these:

    http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/L242D

    and I can tell you that I and all my staff would take one of those over any small Myford ever built, at any time. It was quite a nice machine and if I were in the market for a new lathe, it's what I'd personally be looking to buy.

    So I'm afraid that your view on things differs considerably from mine........................
    PDW

    That is a nice 14" swing lathe you have there. It is made in Taiwan though. Taiwanese machine tools are generally two steps above mainland China, both in fit/finish and in price. About same as Russian or East European lathes, and maybe halfway towards "western" lathes, like this nice 14" EMCO:
    http://www.emco-world.com/en/product...omat-14-d.html.

    The OP asked about Chinese lathes of 11-14" swing. I take it he meant mainland China. The thing with chinese lathes is, the larger the better they get. Below 10" swing quality is simply nonexistant. 10" and 11" swing lathes are still quite poorly made, but at least two steps up from a 7" minilathe or a 9x20. In the 12-13" range you can find some crap at the cheap end, and some better made models if you look at the top of the price range. 14" are already quite acceptable workhorses - you do not get things like precision spindle bearings or precision ground gears of course.

    These Chinese 14" lathes are already quite heavy though, not something the average home shop user wants to move around. This is the reason why large "old iron" lathes are not much in demand, making second hand prices quite low. Often as low as scrap metal value. I personally would think that restoring an old machine is likely to result in a better value outcome, as compared to buy new Chinese. But everyone will have his own view on this.

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