Thread: Copying machine for turn buckles?

If you don't have wads of money then doing them by hand would be the way to go. Most CNC company's would consider 60 pieces to be a very short run and therefore charge accordingly

What is the extent of the variations? End styles? Body lengths? Sizes?
And what "don't look right?"

It might be beneficial to consider over-collecting some more standard (less dear) assemblies, and re-assembling the parts to suit your needs. That's likely how the originals were made anyway, more or less.

Cheers,
Joe

Can you provide a link to the modern part? I wonder about hardening/heat treat and corrosion protection. I have had hair-greying moments with amateur -built components failing in-flight and have lost my sense of humour with them.

What kind of tension do the wires get, or are these also for control cables?

Have you ever flown a WWI vintage aeroplane? Are you going to get an authentic engine? Le Rhone rotary on those?

Greg

I have had hair-greying moments with amateur -built components failing in-flight and have lost my sense of humour with them.

Hmmmm. That was my first thought as well.

Originally Posted by joe greiner

What is the extent of the variations? End styles? Body lengths? Sizes?
And what "don't look right?"

It might be beneficial to consider over-collecting some more standard (less dear) assemblies, and re-assembling the parts to suit your needs. That's likely how the originals were made anyway, more or less.

Cheers,
Joe

Not sure I have the gist of your post - will try to respond anyway. The modern turn buckle barrels could be used but the ends would have to be manufactured. I drew some up in CAD last night. Just have to render them tonight then I will post some pics.

You can buy barrels and ends separately, however not many of the ends are similar to the original design. I hope to avoid modifying the design as that introduces a whole lot of variables (and potential for hair-greying experiences!).

Originally Posted by gregoryq

Can you provide a link to the modern part? I wonder about hardening/heat treat and corrosion protection. I have had hair-greying moments with amateur -built components failing in-flight and have lost my sense of humour with them.

What kind of tension do the wires get, or are these also for control cables?

Have you ever flown a WWI vintage aeroplane? Are you going to get an authentic engine? Le Rhone rotary on those?

Greg

I have the specs for the 'modern' versions (these specs come out around the 1930s!). I have also calculated the stresses likely to be encountered by the parts in my airframe (then multiplied it by 1.5!). I plan to use off-the-shelf items for areas like the control cables as these can't be seen from outside.

Regarding heat treatment/corrosion control - not something that really comes into the spec. The barrels are brass and the ends various types of steel depending on the application. The French used to wrap them in string to prevent the fabric aircraft covering rubbing through on the metal! I would have though this would trap moisture and make corrosion more likely.

Regarding in-flight failures, I've had hair-greying moments with certified components as well....

As a reliability engineer I believe I am approaching the project with a reasonable amount of caution and a healthy dose of skepticism. Any part I make would be tested, particularly the turn buckles. However from my calculations, the attachment points will be weaker than the turnbuckles.

I haven't flown a WW1 replica (who has?) - for some strange reason no one hires them out I'm trying to build my tailwheel time though. Hope to do some Auster time as well to really hone the skills.

Engine choice is a concern. The rotary is a cantankerous beast and I don't think they are a good choice for modern aircraft. However there is nothing around that has the torque for such a small/light engine.

Great that you are an engineer-you know what you are doing. I didn't mean to castigate all home built components-I too have had production parts fail in spectacular fashion. Counterfeits too, once (CV-580). In 1978 I watched a full DHC-6 wing over on approach and go straight in...rod end swage failure due to corrosion.

Re WWI aircraft: I mention it because of the obviously primitive handling aspects. The short-coupled fuselage, narrow gear, woeful brakes, unreliable power etc etc. However, I do think it ll sounds like great fun.

My own experience on a Curtis JN-4* came after I had thousands of hours on Beech 18's, DC-3, Aeronca, B-17 (really) PT-17 and even a pole of a Curtis Commando. Nothing, not even Pitts S-2 time really prepares you for how kite-like the old planes are.

*I flew a B-17 in air shows one summer. Everyone wanted a ride, so we'd trade with the two seater Mustang guys and Harvards and whatever else we could squeeze into. Thats how I got the Jenny instruction and 1:15 flight.

Anyway, best of luck with your project. If you need any help with woodwork or light machining give me a pm.

Best,

Greg

Sorry not be any help with the request but regarding the quirks of WW1 aircraft, I saw a doco on them a few months ago and the most striking and disturbing 'feature' ( of aircraft with the rotary engine where the cylinders rotate and the crank is stationary) was the gyroscopic effect that caused the controls to be offset 90°!!!! So if you wanted to pitch down, you moved the joystick to the right( or left, not sure now.)!!
I couldn't believe it......

I've only ever heard one Le Rhone, at the Old Rheinbeck Aerodrome in upstate NY, must have been -'73 or so. They had Spads and Fokkers and I'm sure a Nieuport too. I haven't paid much attention to them, but you'd imagine that the rotating mass would be hefty enough to cause a gyroscopic effect. (My sole exposure was to a V-12 cylinder Liberty engine of more convention design)

My Dad mentioned them...he learned to fly in the early 30's...I doubt there would have been any rotaries left flying in Canada by then. I gather they'd also try to escape the engine mounts too.

The WWI movie soundtracks of aeroplanes landing always had a Le Rhone sound...the roar/silence/roar/silence thing. The Le Rhone had to be turned off and on at low speed because the minimum throttle position still gave too much power to land.

This thread almost makes me want to build an Albatross. (Grumman, I mean)

Originally Posted by gregoryq

Great that you are an engineer-you know what you are doing. I didn't mean to castigate all home built components-I too have had production parts fail in spectacular fashion. Counterfeits too, once (CV-580). In 1978 I watched a full DHC-6 wing over on approach and go straight in...rod end swage failure due to corrosion.

Re WWI aircraft: I mention it because of the obviously primitive handling aspects. The short-coupled fuselage, narrow gear, woeful brakes, unreliable power etc etc. However, I do think it ll sounds like great fun.

My own experience on a Curtis JN-4* came after I had thousands of hours on Beech 18's, DC-3, Aeronca, B-17 (really) PT-17 and even a pole of a Curtis Commando. Nothing, not even Pitts S-2 time really prepares you for how kite-like the old planes are.

*I flew a B-17 in air shows one summer. Everyone wanted a ride, so we'd trade with the two seater Mustang guys and Harvards and whatever else we could squeeze into. Thats how I got the Jenny instruction and 1:15 flight.

Anyway, best of luck with your project. If you need any help with woodwork or light machining give me a pm.

Best,

Greg

That is an impressive list of types! The reason I'm building a Nieuport is that I really want to fly a historical fighter ('Pursuit') but I can't afford a P51! Plus I need something to keep me busy on winter nights. I've always enjoyed building scale models (building a 94" Storch atm). So I thought it's about time I built the real thing.

As for being and engineer that knows what he's doing - might be a bold statement! Happy to listen to advice - especially if it's concerned with my safety.

Thanks for the tips on handling. My Nieuport won't have brakes so it will be like flying an original TigerMoth in that regard. It's not something I will fly every weekend - I'll need a ground crew too. Still, should be fun. The Nieuport was supposed to be fairly predictable and well behaved compared to other types of the period. I have read as much as I can about handling WW1 types but I think some time in an Auster (maybe a Tiger) would do me a world of good. Last thing I want to do is damage it through ham-fistedness.

I will drop you a PM sometime, even just to say G'day. Thanks for the offer of assistance.

Originally Posted by Sterob

Sorry not be any help with the request but regarding the quirks of WW1 aircraft, I saw a doco on them a few months ago and the most striking and disturbing 'feature' ( of aircraft with the rotary engine where the cylinders rotate and the crank is stationary) was the gyroscopic effect that caused the controls to be offset 90°!!!! So if you wanted to pitch down, you moved the joystick to the right( or left, not sure now.)!!
I couldn't believe it......

All true! The Sopwith Camel was probably the most infamous in this regard. In a turn it needed some down elevator otherwise it would pitch nose up and the wings would stall. With the torque it would then flip over on its back - at that was the end of hundreds of pilots! But - in those days stalls weren't well understood and spin recovery wasn't taught. I'm hoping my experience as a helicopter pilot will stand me in good stead - at least I know why pilots have feet! I'm a mediocre fixed-wing pilots but enjoy rotary wings - I can never seem to get an aeroplane to fly backwards properly! Here's a quote I like:

The thing is, helicopters are different from planes. An airplane by it's nature wants to fly, and if not interfered with too strongly by unusual events or by a deliberately incompetent pilot, it will fly. A helicopter does not want to fly. It is maintained in the air by a variety of forces and controls working in opposition to each other, and if there is any disturbance in this delicate balance the helicopter stops flying; immediately and disastrously. There is no such thing as a gliding helicopter.
This is why being a helicopter pilot is so different from being an airplane pilot, and why in generality, airplane pilots are open, clear-eyed, buoyant extroverts and helicopter pilots are brooding introspective anticipators of trouble. They know if something bad has not happened it is about to.

— Harry Reasoner, 1971.

Seeing as a few people here like aviation here's a real treat:

http://thevintageaviator.co.nz/airsh...rmation-flight

Spitfire and Camel flying in formation - OMG! There's that rotary sound!

I seem to have strayed a little from the thread but I think you'll forgive me after watching that formation flight...

A helicopter pilot! Ah ha. That explains so much right there.

Is it just me or was that Camel using lots or castor oil? I am impressed that a Spitfire can fly slowly enough to fly formation with a Camel.

20 years Camel to Spit, about six more to jets, another two to rockets, 14 more to supersonic bombers and jet airliners in 1958. Then what? The invention of the low cost airline?

Enjoy your project...lots of work, but you've gotta do something with your time, right?

Oh, flying backwards? Build a full-sized Storch and wait for a wind. About 20 kts should do it

Best,

greg

Lots of Caster oil - I'm sure you know but the rotaries had full-loss oil systems. No scavenging for them! That's another reason the pilots wore scarves - to wipe the oil from their goggles. I guess you are old enough to know what happens when you ingest too much Castor oil? That's no way to fight a war! For more nostalgia - from a time when the planes were made of wood and the men made of steel:

http://thevintageaviator.co.nz/proje...ying-masterton

Bloody hell,

I'm as green as my Hercus will be. Yeh I know this is straying a bit off topic, but I want to go for a spin in an old Spity, who's got one?

Brineshark, there is a crowd in West Heidelberg that do precision repetitive engineering at a fraction of the cost of the "big boys".The company is called Norwebb Pty Ltd in Vernon Ave.

Give Dan North or Graham a call on 9459 3743.

Ken