Thread: Electrical help connecting a motor - where should these go?

I thought we would let this go but....

Sturdee,

Legally there is a difference between giving 'Advice' and giving an 'Opinion', again this is something I deal with everyday.

Disclaimers can and do work however, however for a claim made against someone to be successful, disclaimers only fail where the person with the disclaimer has 'breached their duty of care' and negligence has been proven against that person - are you being negligent providing your opinion - there are way too many variables to provide a concise answer, that is why the legal system is in place. Some people feel safer just to say nothing which is fine, their choice, and certainly nothing wrong with that.

Of course there are legal limits, which vary from state to state, however the courts would also decide what was 'common practice', which is where, something may not strictly be legal, but would a person of sound mind still do it (eg: it's 3am, taking somone to the hospital in an emergency and you run a red light, are you breaking the law, yes, would the court fine you for it if it went that far, probably not).

The aiding and abetting thing is also a little extreme, however again is correct, by the current logic, say your wife was driving on her way to the shops, you call her on her mobile phone to remind her to pick up some milk, and she picked up the phone while driving, then ran into someone and killed them as a result of lapsed concentration, are you aiding and abetting her criminal activity as you knew she was driving, probably technically yes, would you be jailed or fined for it, highly unlikely.

The underlying fact here is people who ask these types questions on a forum do have a (although limited at times) general understanding of what they want to achieve, and may just need assistance on the 'finer points', it can then be at the discretion of the other forumers if they choose to answer or not (no one wants to lose sleep over this stuff).

There is no right or wrong to this stuff, only opinions.

Thanks.

Colin

Originally Posted by colinshannon

There is no right or wrong to this stuff, only opinions.

There is only one right thing to do and that happens to be the legal thing to do and that is not to aid and abet a illegal act.

All the things you have suggested are only opinions as to what you think may be the best thing to do, what a Court may think in certain circumstances and whilst a Court may think like you, it could also do otherwise.

I have been (in a former life) been involved in too many legal cases where the QC opinioned that the Court would make a certain decision and then the Judge surprised us by doing the opposite. Often at further expense to us. I would never presume to know the Court's mind in any matter and anyone who does is a bloody fool.

As I said I would not give advice on electrical matters in an open forum and I would strongly suggest others do the same, however if they decide otherwise then they are foolish and deserve the consequences if their advice leads to any future and often unexpected consequences.

Debating as to what the law ought to be, the value of disclaimers etc and the relative merits of knowing how to do something that is and will remain illegal I'm not interested in, just advising everyone of my decision and the reasons behind it.

All members should make up their own mind on what to do but they should take all possible consequences into account.


Peter.

The underlying fact here is people who ask these types questions on a forum do have a (although limited at times) general understanding of what they want to achieve

How the hell do you know that? They could be 15 year old kids for all you know!

Hi Peter,

You are right, there are way too many variables and different scenarios to provide an exact answer, and the legal system can be unpredictable at times (obviously the full story needs to be known but this is not the time or place), again though, wether to reply to a questions on a forum is for the forumer's to decide.

Yes, members should make up their own mind, but if they would like to reply but maybe a bit hesitant, I do suggest that they also make the recipient aware that they are only offering an opinion, and that they are not necessarily qualified in that particular field if they do offer opinions / advice.

The info I have provided in previous posts has been gained from working directly with Legal Liability (where Legal = Law), reading endless amounts of (boring) codes of practice documents (as part of normal business), as well as discussing with Underwriters, Insurance Company's legal guys, and directly with clients about their concerns, exactly on a regular basis how responsibility rests on the shoulders of an individual or contractor. There are so many things we do everyday that can be considered illegal (ever crossed the street without using a zebra-crossing?), but common sense must prevail - (and generally it does), otherwise we would never do anything.

I just hope that people don't avoid offering opinions and advice on open forums, both for and against a particular job, as this gives the asker a greater insight into the job at hand, and wether to tackle the job themself or not.

Thanks again for the input, and all input has been greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Colin

Originally Posted by Santalum

Holy cow, I cant believe these questions, this is 240 v you're playing with, it can kill ya stone dead.
Next thing we see will be queries about diy brain surgery. Jon.

Actually I have had a temple headache the last few days. Any ideas where to cut

You think that's a joke, but: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/651892.stm

Originally Posted by dazzler

Actually I have had a temple headache the last few days. Any ideas where to cut

Do you want advice or an opinion Dazzler?

Oh man,

Let it go,

I don't know they are not 15 year old, they could be 8! The reply is at the discretion of the respondent, if you are concerned about giving an answer, don't give it, or ask a few more qualifying questions to be sure! The point I was making (generally speaking) is that most people who ask a technical question are doing so for a reason and are generally of a certain ability (otherwise they most likely would not have asked the question!). Maybe we all have to start our posts like...

Hi, my name is Colin, I'm 32 years old and I'm a lathe-a-holic!

Dazzler, I feel your pain brother, take 2 asprins and call me in the morning! Please keep in mind I'm not a doctor though, actually before you do that you best seek medical advice! I'd do the surgery for you but I'm still waiting for my hand to grow back after trying to change my car's fan belt without stopping the motor first!

Colin

Originally Posted by watson

I agree with all the don't do it posts.
I've wired everything within cooee of my house/shed/pump house....got the strap from the electrical inspector for being too neat.
But, if I get zapped....or my Missus gets zapped, or any visitor gets zapped.....the buck stops with me.
The answer is...DON'T DO IT!! (sorry for shouting)
On another thread we were talking about recycled washing machine motors/starting capacitors and wiring..again we should also all say get an electrician. DIY electricity isn't a place we should go

And the winner of the annual

"Do I say, not as I do Award"
is

The envelope please.......

The point I was making (generally speaking) is that most people who ask a technical question are doing so for a reason and are generally of a certain ability (otherwise they most likely would not have asked the question!).

That's the problem with generalisations. They only apply to some people.

Interesting link on the DIY brain surgery, however I think she sums up here previous state of mind by saying now there is "more mental clarity", now would you tell her where 2 earth leads go to on a lathe motor conversion!

True about generalisations, but to address each and every scenario would be impossible, that's where maturity and discretion come in - one would hope!

Colin

that's where maturity and discretion come in

I think that society is tending to adopt the lowest common denominator approach to these things. You start with the basic assumption that at least some of the people 'out there' are idiots and frame everything to protect them. It comes back to the argument that if you need to ask how, you shouldn't be doing it. But obviously that doesn't apply to the majority of things we discuss here and the forum wouldn't exist if we took that line with everything.

It's a tough one and each member has to make up their own mind. I'm not debating that. But I am debating a couple of the assumptions you've made in deciding it's OK. Whether or not a court of law would find a member negligent or not, it would not necessarily prevent your widow or next of kin from seeking damages after finding you slumped over your newly wired up motor, clutching a print out from this forum in your withered, claw like hand. That's a hassle that most of us could do without - whether it went our way or not.

You can't assume that a faceless person you have never met has any knowledge of the subject. I can quite easily masquerade as an expert on many things simply by Googling and then posting what I learn. Then there's the possibility that someone unrelated to the thread might read it and try to apply it. That could easily be a 15 year old kid mucking about with an old washing machine motor under his house. They don't even have to be a member, because this is a public forum.

I don't know. I'm not comfortable with it myself but it's up to others to decide, but do so with an understanding of the full implications and without making assumptions about the experience level of the people who might read your advice, that's all.

Now on to that DIY brain surgery...

Originally Posted by silentC

I don't know. I'm not comfortable with it myself but it's up to others to decide, but do so with an understanding of the full implications and without making assumptions about the experience level of the people who might read your advice, that's all.

But silentC, you've offered to look up lintel span tables for someone in another thread and you have assumed that they can give you a meaningful RLW! Is their extension also placing a load on the wall? Maybe can can give you a RLW, but will someone else reading the thread know what it means? How is this different to offering advice on electrical matters?

I'm not criticising you offering to look up the design tables, but at least be consistent with your argument. At least you, by implication, are alerting someone who is considering installing a lintel that they might need to be aware of what a RLW is and that there maybe aspects to the job they haven't considered. It should be the same for electrical advice - make people aware of the issues and let them decide.

I was waiting for that. I bet he can't give me the RLW. If he can, then I can look it up in a table that is freely and publically available and give him the size of the lintel that would be needed. I'm not going to tell him how to install it, or whether to remove the brace, or how to rebrace the wall. I simply offered to look something up in a table he could go and buy a copy of himself if he wants to.

The other thing is that currently anybody can complete building works as long as they have the appropriate permit and approvals. Even a 15 year old...