Thread: Electrics on a Boley 5LZ lathe

I can make out a fair bit of the schematic.
The box on the outside is a 415/240V transformer.
The transformer in the cabinet is a 240/36V that then goes through a (fairly beefy) bridge rectifier giving around 32 V DC. I was going to say to drive the coolant pump but the pump seems to be fed 3 phase via the pump contactor and pump outlet. The DC is fed into some variable resistances which may be used for braking. I don't know that much about lathes so I could be way off here but the DC then goes through the selector switch (brake position?)
I think your only option is to provide 3 phase to the lathe. VFDing the motor wouldn't cut it I don't think. Too much going on in there.
Bottle fuses can be had in Aus
http://au.rs-online.com/web/p/bottle-fuses/7686106/
http://www.fuseco.com.au/catalogue/b..._fuse_holders/
Fuseco are good to deal with. I bought $11k worth of fuses off them last week. Admittedly they were a bit bigger than the bottle fuses.
Nice lathe by the way.

Ken (Toggy) had some issues with his RPC https://www.woodworkforums.com/showth...=191556&page=2 but the manufacturer sorted them out. Is it worth contacting them and seeing if you can get an evaluation unit? They may also have some thoughts on sizing that may help.
Ray was also involved and can probably add to the story.

Michael

Originally Posted by variant22

32amp line might be a longer term option. Although I am not sure what the difference would be between having a 32amp and a 3ph rigged? If it has to come from the street it might well have to go under my driveway... Last time I checked about the 3ph the electrician offered to do it if I dug the trench. I think it might have had to be 600 deep and at that depth we were hitting rock. Nothing but a whole bunch of rock up here and no street posts - only underground cabling.

32A single phase is easy. No new cables from the street, just a new breaker on the switchboard and a short line to the workshop. The only real issue is running the cable from the switchboard to the shop as I don't know how the cable runs go at your place. Could be a nightmare but might be pretty simple. Far simpler than running 3 phase under the driveway (or next to it) that's for sure. Pity they didn't put down big conduit in the first place but they never do even though the extra cost is peanuts when trenches etc are open. I even ran 3 phase 20A down to my dam because I had a trench open all the way from the house at the time.

Electric stoves are wired 32A so there's no dramas with available power from the street. You'll have at least 60A single phase coming to your meter box/switchboard right now.

I can have a look sometime if you want.

PDW

I would suggest the 4kw (5.4?hp) at least; RPC because of those high startup amperages. Requires a 20amp slow blow fuse. I have had the circuit breaker drop out trying to start a brand new 4hp WEG 2 pole motor under heavy loads.

The 4kw has some extra features to the 3kw.

Ken

Originally Posted by Michael G

As a minor point, those milk bottle fuses can be hard to find. I'd suggest you take one out now, note the details and start asking at your local electrical wholesalers

Or just replace them with breakers, if they ever blow.
I have a heap of different sizes of those fuses in my mill and it would be easier (and cheaper) to replace them with breakers rather than source and keep spares of each type/size of fuse.
I already replaced the main input fuses with breakers (because I had them on hand) and if I blow any of the remaining bottle fuses, I will also replace them with breakers.

If its like my De Valliere 140 e the motor has a brake module on the end to drive it as you flicked the lever to stop and started to move the lever into reverse is when the brake actuated the further you moved towards the reverse position the brake bit harder can you show us a better overall picture of the motor please ?

Bruce

Originally Posted by NCArcher

I can make out a fair bit of the schematic.
The box on the outside is a 415/240V transformer.
The transformer in the cabinet is a 240/36V that then goes through a (fairly beefy) bridge rectifier giving around 32 V DC. I was going to say to drive the coolant pump but the pump seems to be fed 3 phase via the pump contactor and pump outlet. The DC is fed into some variable resistances which may be used for braking. I don't know that much about lathes so I could be way off here but the DC then goes through the selector switch (brake position?)

Thanks for the tips on the schematic interpretation and leads on the fuses.

The clutches work off 24v DC. I am yet to work out how the brake works.

Originally Posted by Michael G

Ken (Toggy) had some issues with his RPC https://www.woodworkforums.com/showth...=191556&page=2 but the manufacturer sorted them out. Is it worth contacting them and seeing if you can get an evaluation unit? They may also have some thoughts on sizing that may help.
Ray was also involved and can probably add to the story.
Michael

Thanks Michael. I read through the thread. One thing that is jumping out at me is that these phase converters cost serious dollars. One that is 7.5hp would be around 4.5k. On that basis alone I am looking internationally. I noticed that Phoenix Phase Converters do one around that size for $715 USD. The UK option is about 2k. The freight may kill the international option though. The reliability issues experienced by Ken are a bit of a worry when spending that sort of money.

Originally Posted by PDW

32A single phase is easy. No new cables from the street, just a new breaker on the switchboard and a short line to the workshop. The only real issue is running the cable from the switchboard to the shop as I don't know how the cable runs go at your place.

I can have a look sometime if you want.

PDW

Next time you're over I will have to get you to check it out. My electrican was reluctant to give me a 15amp power point in the garage as he reckoned I already had too much stuff feeding off the box. I wanted two 15amp sockets and it took some convincing to get him to put a switch in so I could only use one at a time.

32amp would allow me to go a larger sized phase converter.

Originally Posted by Toggy

I would suggest the 4kw (5.4?hp) at least; RPC because of those high startup amperages. Requires a 20amp slow blow fuse. I have had the circuit breaker drop out trying to start a brand new 4hp WEG 2 pole motor under heavy loads.

The 4kw has some extra features to the 3kw.

Ken

Thanks for the tip Ken. I am now thinking that the 4kw unit might be a bit risky in terms of it having enough juice to properly support he lathe.

Originally Posted by Aussie Bruce

If its like my De Valliere 140 e the motor has a brake module on the end to drive it as you flicked the lever to stop and started to move the lever into reverse is when the brake actuated the further you moved towards the reverse position the brake bit harder can you show us a better overall picture of the motor please ?

Bruce

Bruce, I am not sure how the lathe does its braking. These photos are as requested of the motor. I can't get any better photos as it inside the base of the machine..

IMG_2138.jpg IMG_2139.jpg IMG_2015.jpg

These are the electromagnetic clutch pictures and some wiring hints on the braking from inside the electrical cabinet.

IMG_2001.jpg IMG_2136.jpg IMG_2063.jpg

Interestingly the schematic of the braking system shows a brush positioned at the rear of the clutch. The Boley 5lz on lathes.co.uk shows the green wires going to the front two brushes and the red wire going to a brush at the rear of the clutch. Mine has 3 brushes, but they are all located at the front of the electromagnetic clutch as seen in the photo above. I guess the red wire goes to the middle "red marked" brush..

The two red lines to the right look like lubrication wicks??

Incidentally the manual with a longitudinal section of the back gear can be downloaded here.

Is there a Boley Yahoo group? The Holbrook one has been a big help for me.

AS,

Some time back there was a discussion regarding toolroom lathes and the 5LZ was mentioned and a once only poster, Philbur from Norway, provided a link to a downloadable sales brochure. https://www.woodworkforums.com/showth...47#post1461147 Phil could well be a Boley owner and it may be worth making contact. He may have the wiring diagram you seek.

BT

"Electronic" braking on the TOS is; er basic. Just throw it into reverse Now that makes the electronics hum; even with the current 3hp motor. The original 10hp could be scary and suck some power The factory manual advocates this method.

The new RPC circuit boards seem to be holding up OK. In the original set up with the internal idler motor; the box temperature was far too high; especially in hot climates. With the external idler motor it stays much cooler even after 3-4 hour runs.

Ken

Right

its all as clear as mud but this is my recommendation

1 obtain a face mount weg motor and a CFM10 VFD suit this will give you the speeds of the motor in one single phase VFD package an bolt n the original motors place

2 run a 240v to 24 v transformer into the original gearbox clutch combo

a motor and drive will cost you about 600 dollars (2.2 kw and drive cost me mates rates)

My De Valliere 140 is set up the same motor to Gearbox by belt and then a silent chain to head stock where my gearbox is manual yours has the electronic clutches those cunning german s hey

Good luck with it

PS my set up Is working great I have the remote pedant with out resistor and simply flick the switch f/r and it stops an then start again quiet easy to use and adjust the speed on the fly and heaps of grunt all off a 10 amp line

Bruce

Originally Posted by Ueee

Is there a Boley Yahoo group? The Holbrook one has been a big help for me.

I have not been able to find one.. Would be great if there was a group. Unfortunately owners are very thin on the ground.

Originally Posted by Anorak Bob

AS,

Some time back there was a discussion regarding toolroom lathes and the 5LZ was mentioned and a once only poster, Philbur from Norway, provided a link to a downloadable sales brochure. https://www.woodworkforums.com/showth...47#post1461147 Phil could well be a Boley owner and it may be worth making contact. He may have the wiring diagram you seek.

BT

I sent Phil Burman a message over on PM. Nothing back from him so far. I will try through here.

It is funny that you mentioned that thread. Reading that thread was the first time I heard of Boley. After reading your comments I did some research. After that I decided if one came up I would have a crack. The rest is history..

Originally Posted by Toggy

The new RPC circuit boards seem to be holding up OK. In the original set up with the internal idler motor; the box temperature was far too high; especially in hot climates. With the external idler motor it stays much cooler even after 3-4 hour runs.

Ken

Good to know that the new board are holding up. Unfortunately they have not responded to my inquiry.

I am starting to think that the 5LZ was designed to run on 220v. I noticed that there are 3 additional components (to the ones mentioned) that are reducing the voltage to 220v. It seems from my latest investigating that the 415v is only used to run the motor. The rest is run on 220v. I have no idea if it is 220v 3 phase.

Something that supports my theory is that Plilbur, the person who's 5LZ is featured on lathes.co.uk runs on 220v according to a post by him over on another forum. His motor looks more like the motor on my Deckel with cooling fins. My 5LZ motor has no cooling fins. So it does make me wonder if it would run from 240v 3ph if the motor was replaced.

Originally Posted by variant22

I am starting to think that the 5LZ was designed to run on 220v. I noticed that there are 3 additional components (to the ones mentioned) that are reducing the voltage to 220v. It seems from my latest investigating that the 415v is only used to run the motor. The rest is run on 220v. I have no idea if it is 220v 3 phase.

Something that supports my theory is that Plilbur, the person who's 5LZ is featured on lathes.co.uk runs on 220v according to a post by him over on another forum. His motor looks more like the motor on my Deckel with cooling fins. My 5LZ motor has no cooling fins. So it does make me wonder if it would run from 240v 3ph if the motor was replaced.

I starting to think I may have led you up the garden path a little
Looking at your pictures and circuit some more, am I correct in assuming the lathe has 3 speeds(x2 with pole changing)? that the motor runs all the time in normal operation with clutches/brake used for start/stop and fwd/rev? all other controls** are 240V or feed from the 240V primary transformer?

If so and isnt something else I'm missing........, and you promise not to use the pole change/reverse switch while the motor is running*, then I think all the "high current " issues just went away and it will run on the Drives direct VSD you linked to with minimal changes** to the factory wiring.

You might be able to run the motor as is on 240V 3 phase for the time being.

Having said all that, there are a lot more terminals in your control box than on your diagram. If I'm not mistaken, the diagram has the "option" of using earth as a neutral which may explain why the "some what large" 415 -240V transformer has been added to the back of the machine?(and some of the extra wires).

Clear as mud? Fair chance I'm missing something. And its still not so say going another way wont be easier/better.

Stuart

*You could interlock the switch if you don't trust yourself

** the main and coolant pump contactors being the main issue I think