Thread: Any one know about hydraulics?

Thanks for the suggestions - a lot to think about!

The tipping carryall is also an Australian Kanga unit - excellent value for money.

When the bucket is heavy, it can take a *lot* of effort to release the latch - it has a 4ft steel lever which we've taken to adding an RHS cheater bar to make it easier to release. Any cable-based system would need a good bit of mechanical advantage (which might be feasible once I think about it...).

The tractor is a weird Italian vineyard tractor (Antonio Carraro), whose design does not lend itself to taking a loader - there are one or two around that fit on the linkage or actually bolt onto the of the tractor, but apart from being hideously expensive, they're not a great solution.

Apart from the fact that you can't lift the carryall more than a foot or two, it works really well for what it is.

design does not lend itself to taking a loader

Bugger!!!

Originally Posted by Farmer Geoff

Re the diff lock - it should release if there is no tension on the diff. Sometimes need to wobble steering wheel a bit driving forward and reverse or experiment with touching turning brakes until tension is released - especially if one brake is binding a bit. Once it is released, you might be able to avoid needing to use it by using turning brakes to equalise traction if it's just an occasional problem.

I've always found that a good stamp on one or the other of the brake pedals will release the diff lock if it's loaded up for some reason. It sounds like there may be some internal damage or corrosion in this case though as it seems to be an ongoing issue.
Not overly familiar with Fiats, but they seem to have a good strong following, particularly the earlier bright orange models and those that have them, love them. From memory, the same basic engine was used for all models with just an extra cylinder added and the rev limit upped for more horsepower. Much higher revving than other tractors of the era which I didn't like so much.
Try this link http://www.antrac.net/catalog/fiat_detailed_55.htm it has a diagram that will give you some idea of what's in there before you rip into it.

You only need to tee in the hydraulic circuit to both cylinders as the bucket should have enough strength to avoid twisting. You will possibly be invetsing a lot into this bucket with only some improvement in function. Without knowing exactly what you are using it for, that may be enough for your use. It should be better for digging or levelling and give you more control for spreading a load and digging, and finger tip control and easy.
Before we had a front end loader on our farm we had a Metters rear end loader that fitted onto 3pl. The main advantage is that it can lift higher, although because of the lack of downforce due to being mounted on 3pl its digging capacity is ordinary. Rear end loaders can also have forks for lifting, but it is more money.
I would encourage you to have a go with a couple of 8" ag cylinders.

The tipping bucket can be operated by two cylinders one on each side, one in the center or one on one side. In every case the cylinder needs to have an anchor point on the bucket and that point needs to be beefed up. An easy enough welding project.

As far as the comments that it is not worth it, that is difficult to comment on. People have told me my car is not worth keeping yet I disagree. In fact I have disagreed for 20 years now
The value of a project is not necessarily in the end result but usually in the process.

As far as tractors and front loaders, I would import a Case 570 from the US and ship it here "roll on roll off" with the added benefit of a retro excavator, auger attachment and other nice tools, and way cheaper than the rip off merchant here.

Compared to my idea of cheap, a one cylinder or even a fancy two cylinder seems like a good idea, haha

My half-baked plan was to get 2 8" cylinders off Ebay like these:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Hydraulic...-/291186391604

And get some matching pins, weld them to a spreader plate on the sides of bucket and somehow to the frame. I'd remove the stop tabs on each side which would allow the bucket to roll back a bit further.

That, to me, is relatively quick and simple.

The only tricky bit is the plumbing, which will involve a hydraulic shop, which typically involve heart-stopping prices.

And yes I, like everyone, dream of an excuse to get a backhoe.

Originally Posted by Bedford

What model Fiat is it?

Model 615.

Re the diff lock - it should release if there is no tension on the diff. Sometimes need to wobble steering wheel a bit driving forward and reverse or experiment with touching turning brakes until tension is released - especially if one brake is binding a bit. Once it is released, you might be able to avoid needing to use it by using turning brakes to equalise traction if it's just an occasional problem.

The brake can be released. I acts like a cam that reaches the top of the lobe and stays there. Levering the operating mechanism out releases it. The cam idea is just an illustration. I don't know how it operates.

The diff lock release lever does nothing.

I've always found that a good stamp on one or the other of the brake pedals will release the diff lock if it's loaded up for some reason. It sounds like there may be some internal damage or corrosion in this case though as it seems to be an ongoing issue.
Not overly familiar with Fiats, but they seem to have a good strong following, particularly the earlier bright orange models and those that have them, love them. From memory, the same basic engine was used for all models with just an extra cylinder added and the rev limit upped for more horsepower. Much higher revving than other tractors of the era which I didn't like so much.
Try this link http://www.antrac.net/catalog/fiat_detailed_55.htm it has a diagram that will give you some idea of what's in there before you rip into it.

Thanks for the link Karl. That is the best I have seen so far. I have looked everywhere I can think of, on the net with no luck. That gives me some idea of what to expect.

Dean

[QUOTE=Oldneweng;1832905......................

I am interested in your work as I intend to make something very similar to fit my 65hp Fiat which needs the diff lock released. I am guessing something is worn or broken inside. I have not been able to find a manual for it.

I don't suppose anyone knows anything about these (Diff locks). I was told by the guy I got it from that it was the right brake jamming on, as it does when you use it. I will look at this as well, at the same time as the diff lock. Funny how the tractor does not want to turn! I would have thought that with one brake applied it would not want to go straight. It takes all kinds.

Dean[/QUOTE]


Dean,

download the Fiat 615 trattore illustrated spare parts catalog from this site:
http://www.tracteurs-someca.fr/docs/615_pieces.pdf

Yes its a French site. But you will find your parts manual caters for Italian, French, German, English and Spanish speaking people. Go to drawing B4-10 to see the diff lock actuator components. The drawing just before shows the differential components. From this it should not be too hard to figure out what is wrong.

Originally Posted by RustyArc

My half-baked plan was to get 2 8" cylinders off Ebay like these:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Hydraulic...-/291186391604

And get some matching pins, weld them to a spreader plate on the sides of bucket and somehow to the frame. I'd remove the stop tabs on each side which would allow the bucket to roll back a bit further.

That, to me, is relatively quick and simple.

The only tricky bit is the plumbing, which will involve a hydraulic shop, which typically involve heart-stopping prices.

And yes I, like everyone, dream of an excuse to get a backhoe.

But two of these cylinders is already $370, plus the additional pipes and fittings, together that is probably as much $$$ than a brand spanking new Hydraulically oprerated transport box/tipping carryall from Kanga costs. Why bother converting the old model if you can have the new one? Just visit the Kanga factory in person and speak to the owner (you need to take some cash with you, as that considerably changes his calculations).

PS: I personally would save the money towards an FEL. It's 100 times more useful, believe me. And if one day you sell it, you always get the money back for an FEL or a backhoe, but rear scoops/tipping carryalls are near instant writeoffs because nobody wants them. I speak from personal experience. 20 years I did make do with a little tractor and carryall/grader/ripper/rear scoop. Since I have a new tractor with FEL everything happens 3 times faster - proof is I do about the same amout of tasks, but whilst I averaged about 120 hours a year on the old tractor, I only do 40 hours a year on the new one. I should have upgraded long long ago. An FEL is just an extremely useful thing to have, to lift whole windows into place, to lift a lathe, the generator, you can add forks.... the list gos on and on, you just do not know what you miss out before you get one. Once you have one, you cannot understand anymore how one can risk breaking his back without one, let alone the blisters from shoveling.....

Just looking at how you have the cylinders drawn in you picture, I think you will have to mount them more vertically. The way you have them shown they will put more of their force into trying to bend the bucket than trying to turn it over. For your application teeing the cylinders together will work fine, just try to keep the hose runs from the tee to each cylinder the same. I'm not trying to knock your idea down as it is a good idea, but it will work out quite expensive buy the time you buy all the bits. If it was me I would look at other options like modifying the trip mechanism. On that note could we get a picture of the trip mechanism, might be able to give you some ideas.

Originally Posted by cba_melbourne

Dean,

download the Fiat 615 trattore illustrated spare parts catalog from this site:
http://www.tracteurs-someca.fr/docs/615_pieces.pdf

Yes its a French site. But you will find your parts manual caters for Italian, French, German, English and Spanish speaking people. Go to drawing B4-10 to see the diff lock actuator components. The drawing just before shows the differential components. From this it should not be too hard to figure out what is wrong.

Nice. Complete with tear marks from where the pages were removed, hand written notes and what appears to be part of a page chewed by insects.

Thanks cba. It will be good to have it all in one place. There is English descriptions of each page and parts. That will make it easy to follow.

Dean

Originally Posted by cba_melbourne

But two of these cylinders is already $370, plus the additional pipes and fittings, together that is probably as much $$$ than a brand spanking new Hydraulically oprerated transport box/tipping carryall from Kanga costs. Why bother converting the old model if you can have the new one? Just visit the Kanga factory in person and speak to the owner (you need to take some cash with you, as that considerably changes his calculations).

Yeah, if it was $370 and a bit of steel, not such an issue, but I just looked at what it cost last time I got a new end put on a piece of 3/4" hydraulic hose - fitting, ferrule and crimp: $50. I'd probably use 1/2" for this, but I doubt it'll be much cheaper, so around $100 a hose, and with the tees, I'd need 6

So maybe I need to head back the the drawing board...

The Kanga factory's a bit of a trek from here

PS: I personally would save the money towards an FEL. It's 100 times more useful, believe me. And if one day you sell it, you always get the money back for an FEL or a backhoe, but rear scoops/tipping carryalls are near instant writeoffs because nobody wants them.

I agree 100%, but the problem is these tractors just aren't suited to FELs - I've seen some attempts at them, and they don't look great, and you find horror stories about cracked chassis etc. This is a vineyard on a steep hillside where you really need the fancy tractor. On my (much flatter) property I have good, honest Kubota with a FEL that has an interchangeable bucket and forks.

www.tractor-manuals-downunder.com have a manual for a fiat 513 which they say will work for a 615. $28 via email.

Originally Posted by Karl Robbers

www.tractor-manuals-downunder.com have a manual for a fiat 513 which they say will work for a 615. $28 via email.

That site appears familiar. If it is I obviously missed the reference to the 615, under the 513 heading. Thanks again. I will get a copy.

Dean