Thread: New Milling machines - which/where

Without knowing what you actually want to do...

http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/M603D

I hate these open-ended questions because they can be so open-ended...

First things first - what are you planning to do on the machine (materials, size etc). This will influence the size of machine but also things like speeds and features. If for example you wanted to make large gears from steel, a different machine would be called for than if you just wanted to make small parts for watches from brass.

The second thing to remember is that anyone who is interested long term in metal work (especially those self taught) will normally never have just one of the usual machines (lathe, mill etc). What happens is that you buy a machine, learn about it but also learn more about what you want to do and after a while replace it or get another machine to better match your needs. I'm on my third lathe and second mill (with a 4th lathe waiting reassembly/ restoration and other machines calling me too). In real terms this means that you don't need to get a perfect (and large) machine now because unless you are really lucky in your selection you will probably find that you want something different later on - save your money until you get down the track a bit and can make more informed decisions about what is best for you.

Third thing to know is that metal work machines bite. If you are new to metal working, one of the good things about small machines is you can learn on them and although they can be slow and frustrating it will be harder to injure yourself. My co-workers amuse themselves by sending me pictures of gruesome accidents with large machine tools. Much harder to do on a machine that you can carry in your arms (as opposed to one that can carry off your arms). On that basis you may be better off buying a mini-mill (Seig or similar) that you intend to sell in a few years time when you have a better idea of what you wish to do. Provided you have looked after it, it should have reasonable resale value as there are always new people coming into the market.

Fourth, (although you have perhaps ruled this out) is that a second hand machine is not such a bad thing. Because they need repairs you will learn how they function. Normally they are cheaper because they are used. Yes, they may be worn but for most of us that is part of the charm of them and the secret of successful machining is planning the job to get what you want with what you have. Some times it is impossible, but most times it just requires some thought to minimise the errors that the machine may otherwise introduce. Some people don't want "fix-er-uppers", but it is a good way to know a machine and there are some out there that once you know how they operate will be ideal for particular types of work. I would have to think long and hard about changing my mill for example as it is almost perfect for what I want to do (at least for the moment).

Five - remember that these machines require tooling. Depending what you have in mind, you may be up for a few thousand dollars to kit up to make your thoughts reality.

Six. Don't be artificially limited to 240V. There are lots of ex-industrial machines out there that will run with a VFD that turns single phase into three phase. Again, not for everyone but it does add range to the machines that you can select from. These days industrially CNC is the go, so there are manual machines out there that are 3 phase but can be used for hobby machining quite successfully.

Michael

Hello Gmetal,
Welcome to the forum.

I agree with the comments from Michael. I've had a lathe for as long as I can remember, but I also had an excellent mentor that had been running an engineering company from way before I was born. So I was lucky in so much as I was able to get sound advice, instruction and practical assistance at any time.

Like you I don't have a three phase supply, but don't let that put you off a three phase machine and using a VFD to power it. Certainly up to say 3 Hp or there abouts, much more is going to demand a heavier power supply than you may have in your workshop.

Remember that these machines require tooling. Depending what you have in mind, you may be up for a few thousand dollars to kit up to make your thoughts reality.

Don't be artificially limited to 240V. There are lots of ex-industrial machines out there that will run with a VFD that turns single phase into three phase. Again, not for everyone but it does add range to the machines that you can select from. These days industrially CNC is the go, so there are manual machines out there that are 3 phase but can be used for hobby machining quite successfully.

Michael

Hi gmetal and welcome to the forum.
If you are prepared to run a VFD, for the money you've allocated, you could get a really good machine in 3 phase, possibly all the tooling you would ever require (second hand) including the VFD. If you find that it's not for you, you would get most of your money back if not all. A reasonably good machine would set you back about 2K. I know of a Beaver Pal mill (made in England) that could be got for possibly around the $1500, it runs perfectly apart from a ticking noise when using the Z drive up and down, probably a chipped tooth, I've been asked to look into the problem. If it going to cost to much, he'll send for a new CNC machine from China.

Kryn

Thanks for the responses everyone, appreciated.


RC,
I'll have to investigate requirements for 20amp 240v. I believe it will require hard wiring a new circuit which I was hoping to avoid.


Michael,
1. Sorry I forgot to mention use and materials. Automotive parts, racing, performance, suspension arms, etc. Mild steel and stainless steel. Aluminium would be nice but not essential. Working size around 300x300mm with possibility of increasing.

2. More machines - Yes, I expect to need more machines in future including a lathe. In all cases though, I don't mind purchasing larger than my needs having read that larger equals more stable and better cuts.

3. Size - Yes, I could start with a smaller machine, not so much re safety, more so to get started sooner! My main concern is a quality unit. I just read that even brand new Seig's have issues requiring dissembly and tuning.

5. Tooling - no problem - I will buy the best tooling I can find even if it costs more than the machine itself.

6. Power - I'm trying to avoid requirements for permanent wiring, so thought power units would be too much trouble.


Baron & KB PensNmore,
Again I figured higher power units would be too much trouble given I'm trying to avoid new/permanent wiring, but I will investigate VFDs. It may be worth considering now that I have totally ruled out cheap Chinese-made mills.

Originally Posted by gmetal

Thanks for the responses everyone, appreciated.


RC,
I'll have to investigate requirements for 20amp 240v. I believe it will require hard wiring a new circuit which I was hoping to avoid.


Michael,
1. Sorry I forgot to mention use and materials. Automotive parts, racing, performance, suspension arms, etc. Mild steel and stainless steel. Aluminium would be nice but not essential. Working size around 300x300mm with possibility of increasing.

2. More machines - Yes, I expect to need more machines in future including a lathe. In all cases though, I don't mind purchasing larger than my needs having read that larger equals more stable and better cuts.

3. Size - Yes, I could start with a smaller machine, not so much re safety, more so to get started sooner! My main concern is a quality unit. I just read that even brand new Seig's have issues requiring dissembly and tuning.

5. Tooling - no problem - I will buy the best tooling I can find even if it costs more than the machine itself.

6. Power - I'm trying to avoid requirements for permanent wiring, so thought power units would be too much trouble.


Baron & KB PensNmore,
Again I figured higher power units would be too much trouble given I'm trying to avoid new/permanent wiring, but I will investigate VFDs. It may be worth considering now that I have totally ruled out cheap Chinese-made mills.

G'Day and welcome Gmetal, I would agree with the advice that you have already been given here, but I would also like to point out a few things from your list above. Your materials list of mild steel, stainless steel and possibly aluminium has 3 quite different materials in terms of machinability on small machines especially. Stainless steel can be difficult to machine at the best of times, and any machine capable of handling it well will not have any issues with mild steel or aluminium. Mild steel is sometimes a bit gummy and difficult to achieve a good finish on, Aluminium can also be tricky, but the right cutting oil will help greatly as will the right tool.
As for machines that are good straight out of the box, they will be very much more expensive, than the little roughies like the Chinese mills for the hobby market. Think $20,000 compared to under $1000 for a second hand mill drill type milling machine. For your money you would get a new machine with warranty, parts backup and build quality way above the other cheaper units, but at a premium. If you can afford that, running a 3 phase supply won't bother you too much. Good tooling can easily cost you several times the cost of the basic machine depending on just how comprehensively you want to equip your mill, again way more than running in a new 20 or 50 amp service to your workshop. If you have the time, (and judging from your comments you may not), there is second hand stuff up for sale all the time as manufacturing gets hammered in this country, and you could be luck and pick up a real gem for a very good price. Good European and American made machines come up frequently as do Korean, Japanese and good Chinese. When the car industry finally closes there will be a real glut, and already there seems to be a fairly large amount of machine tools for sale in South Australia, just keep your eyes open and look up all the auction houses lists for factory closures. Good luck and you'll learn lots on this forum with the many helpful and knowledgeable members here.

Where in Sydney are you?

gmetal, the quality of all new milling machines is inconsistent from batch to batch, you should get a good one but you may get a dog. This is true across ALL of the importers/resellers, no matter how good their presentation is or how persuasive their ads are. None of them exercise control or are able to exercise any control over the quality of what they import.

That said, when you dive into the murky water of imported machine tools it is safer to deal with someone like Hafco (I'm not endorsing them) who are financially strong enough to replace a 6k machine should it come to that without quibble.

I have one of the HM52s you mention and its a good one, but it is still only a light duty machine, it is far too flexible to take heavy cuts. Looking at the design of Hafco's bigger mills, I don't know that they are going to be much more rigid than an HM52. For something better than an HM52, to me, you need to look at older machines, but that is another can of worms.

Hi gmetal and welcome to the forum, you will find some very helpful people here.

In your post you mentioned that you didn’t want to do some rewiring if you could avoid it, the size of the mill will be somewhat governed by what power you have available is. VSD’s can help here to allow you to buy a three phase Mill and run a single phase in three phase out VSD, but keep in mind that the size of the VSD is also governed by the size of the supply you have e.g. for 2.2/3 kW load you will need a 20Amp rated MCCB.
As you are into automotive parts, racing, performance, suspension arms, etc. you probably have Mig – Tig Units as well and they can benefit from a larger power source so looking at a rewire could give you benefits in other areas.
As for whether to buy a New or Old Mill there are good second hand Mills coming up often and you can get a good bargin and a better machine, you just have to be careful in what you are buying so not to get a worn-out one. The forum can help you in giving you the information you need in buying the unit.
I am in Sydney also so if you wanted to pop over to my place and ask some more questions and even see what I have done in my setup let me know and we can arrange this.

Keith_W.

Thanks for your input Ropetangler, Bob and Keith,

It seems Hafco have another model available now, a KM52GV with lower spindle speeds and a geared head: http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/M578

If I was going to step up to 20a and/or VFD I guess these would be the next options:
http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/M603D
http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/M607D

I also liked Michaels idea of starting with a smaller unit like Sieg, but are there any quality brands/units? Everything I read about them is bad news, same with the "german" Optimum brand.

Ropetangler, I'd like to know which machines you speak of when referring to good out-of-the-box machines, even if in the 20k range. Your arguments for a second hand unit are very good, I can imagine many becoming available with the loss of manufacturing and popularity of CNC. Unfortunately my lack of experience means I wouldn't know where to start in the second hand market.

Originally Posted by gmetal

I also liked Michaels idea of starting with a smaller unit like Sieg, but are there any quality brands/units? Everything I read about them is bad news, same with the "german" Optimum brand..

The Sieg type machines are OK, if you are prepared to rebuild the machine. Replace the plastic gears with a belt drive conversion, quieter running also. The bearings on the final drive are not a good quality just sealed bearings, replace them with angular bearings, (similar design to car wheel bearings) will give a better finishing cut. The finish on the machining leaves a bit to be desired, adjust the gibs (adjustable plates to compensate for wear) and it will be tight or loose in another spot. While you're at it replace the plastic wheel handles on the Y and X tables, as they don't last long anyway.
Not trying to put you off, as they are a good machine for the price, basically a box of bits to prove that they are all there. If you are looking for a maximum length to machine of around 280 mm, they will be fine.
Some else might be able to say that theirs was good out of the box, but I think mine was assembled on a Friday or Monday.
Kryn

Originally Posted by gmetal

Thanks for your input Ropetangler, Bob and Keith,

It seems Hafco have another model available now, a KM52GV with lower spindle speeds and a geared head: http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/M578

If I was going to step up to 20a and/or VFD I guess these would be the next options:
http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/M603D
http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/M607D

I also liked Michaels idea of starting with a smaller unit like Sieg, but are there any quality brands/units? Everything I read about them is bad news, same with the "german" Optimum brand.

Ropetangler, I'd like to know which machines you speak of when referring to good out-of-the-box machines, even if in the 20k range. Your arguments for a second hand unit are very good, I can imagine many becoming available with the loss of manufacturing and popularity of CNC. Unfortunately my lack of experience means I wouldn't know where to start in the second hand market.

Have a look at Tormach machines from the U.S. http://www.tormach.com but cheaper for you would be secondhand industrial machines available locally like these http://www.tradeplantequipment.com.a...lling+machines You will need an experienced mate to go with you to inspect befor committing to buy. There are helpful members on this forum only too happy to assist. Good luck,
Rob.

Originally Posted by KBs PensNmore

The Sieg type machines are OK, if you are prepared to rebuild the machine. Replace the plastic gears with a belt drive conversion, quieter running also. The bearings on the final drive are not a good quality just sealed bearings, replace them with angular bearings, (similar design to car wheel bearings) will give a better finishing cut. The finish on the machining leaves a bit to be desired, adjust the gibs (adjustable plates to compensate for wear) and it will be tight or loose in another spot. While you're at it replace the plastic wheel handles on the Y and X tables, as they don't last long anyway.
Not trying to put you off, as they are a good machine for the price, basically a box of bits to prove that they are all there. If you are looking for a maximum length to machine of around 280 mm, they will be fine.
Some else might be able to say that theirs was good out of the box, but I think mine was assembled on a Friday or Monday.
Kryn

LOL this doesn't seem to be the product I'm looking for

Originally Posted by Ropetangler

Have a look at Tormach machines from the U.S. http://www.tormach.com but cheaper for you would be secondhand industrial machines available locally like these http://www.tradeplantequipment.com.a...lling+machines You will need an experienced mate to go with you to inspect befor committing to buy. There are helpful members on this forum only too happy to assist. Good luck,
Rob.

Tormach seems like great option! It would be nice to start with a manual machine to learn on but but computer operated would definitely be the long term answer.

Am I reading correctly that even the larger 1100 machine can be run on our 240v 20amp?
http://www.tormach.com/product_pcnc_main.html#techspecs

Just how deep do you pockets go?
King Rich are a pretty well thought of machine from what I've heard.
Though they start around $12k.
http://www.machines4u.com.au/view/ad...-KRV-2000/531/
http://www.standaco.com.au/products/...h-knee-mills/#

Though they dont meet your 240V request

Stuart