Thread: A question on steel "DNA"

GrobetUSA has nothing whatsoever to do with swiss made files. GrobetUSA is just another generic tool merchant.

Visit their website. They go to great lengths to explain the difference between an "American pattern file" and a "swiss American pattern file". Notice that the phrases "Swiss made" or "made in Switzerlad" are not used!

Now look at the first example of printed file names that you posted. It shows a black powder piilstol, and the writing F.L.Grobet Swiss 2nd cut. That has to be a copy. It wants you to read the words grobet and swiss, so your brain is tricked at thinking it is swiss made. But consider this:
- the pistol is not a trade sign of UMV Vallorbe in the Swiss valley of the river Orbe. Grobet Vallorbe files are stamped with a "running hair" logo.
- the swiss just means it is a "swiss pattern" file. Probably made in the valley of the river Ganges in India . If GrobetUSA was printing "swiss made" on that file, they could be sued. But just swiss is open to litigation, they could argue it just means swiss pattern.
- the "2nd cut" also sounds fishy. Swiss files are classed by numbers like 0 for a bastard cut, not by the American term 2nd Cut, which would be more appropriate if stamped on an US made file.

Also fishy: you mention you bought that file in a blister pack. I have never seen a genuine Vallorbe file in a blister pack. The come in a cardboard box wrapped in oil paper. The only "UMV Grobet Vallorbe" files I know of that come in a plastic pack are sets of diamond coated swiss needle files, I have such a set, and each file in the set is stamped "Grobet Vallorbe Swiss Made" along with the also stamped "running hair" logo.

Last: the Swiss company UMV has changed its name for files bound for sale to the USA from "Grobet Vallorbe" to "Glardon Vallorbe" to differienciate themselves from files made in India and sold by an American company by the name of Grobet USA.

Looks like GrobetUSA was actively trying to cash in on the name similarity. Buyer beware. Its not strictly faking, it is probably perfectly legal in the USA. That does not make it morally right though. You as consumer are best advised to buy your tools from a reputable seller. You now know what to look out for. It is not only files.... in many places in Asia you can buy genuine Rolex watches, made of 100% massive genuine gold, for $50. On eBay you can buy genuine Mitutoyo measuring tools which are fakes. They fake the box and the warranty certificate too.

Originally Posted by cba_melbourne

GrobetUSA has nothing whatsoever to do with swiss made files. GrobetUSA is just another generic tool merchant. Yes, understood

Visit their website. Yes, have done several times

Now look at the first example of printed file names that you posted. It shows a black powder piilstol, and the writing F.L.Grobet Swiss 2nd cut. That has to be a copy. See below
- the swiss just means it is a "swiss pattern" file. Yes
- the "2nd cut" also sounds fishy. Swiss files are classed by numbers like 0 for a bastard cut, not by the American term 2nd Cut, which would be more appropriate if stamped on an US made file.Yes, like the "Cut 2" on the F.Dick needle handle that I posted in here.

Also fishy: you mention you bought that file in a blister pack. I have never seen a genuine Vallorbe file in a blister pack. Hmmm. They came from the Australian agent, via the NZ Distributor. I'll take a pic of the packaging and post.

The only "UMV Grobet Vallorbe" files I know of that come in a plastic pack are sets of diamond coated swiss needle files, I have such a set, and each file in the set is stamped "Grobet Vallorbe Swiss Made" along with the also stamped "running hair" logo.Yes, I have some here as well

Last: the Swiss company UMV has changed its name for files bound for sale to the USA from "Grobet Vallorbe" to "Glardon Vallorbe" to differienciate themselves from files made in India and sold by an American company by the name of Grobet USA. I would really like to find a retailer who is selling these - can't turn up anything at all. I would have thought that Glardon would make Saw Files, but they only talk about Chain Saw files on the website. Sounds very odd, given the disastrous short supply of the damn things, world wide. Not to put too fine a point on it - the only files that anybody in the world is semi-satisfied with are Bahco and Pferd, and even they are not like the saw files of the past, with a proper taper all the way along. Bahco do not make Double Ex.Slim files at all, Pferd make a small and incomplete range.

Looks like GrobetUSA was actively trying to cash in on the name similarity. Buyer beware. Its not strictly faking, it is probably perfectly legal in the USA. That does not make it morally right though. You as consumer are best advised to buy your tools from a reputable seller. Yes, that's what I'm trying to find - any hints for these?

There is an enormous amount of confusion worldwide on this topic Chris. I emailed the pic of F.L.Grobet Swiss 2nd cut printed file to Paul Sellers (a big name in the small worls of saws) in the UK. He says that the ones he purchased from Lee Valley (who are pretty fanatical about QC) look exactly the same.

Let me be clear about the mission and purpose (which I didn't elaborate on before because it's been covered in the main thread, and this thread here was started trying to see if there was a way of proving the origins a the files).

This is not for my benefit. It is for the benefit of saw sharpeners around the world. I could quote the names, but (with respect) they may not mean much to you if you are not in that sphere. I can't stress enough what a dillemma this is for people. It has become particularly bad in the last five years.

What we are trying to find is if there is a manufacturer still producing the goods, and who sells them. It is proving remarkably difficult to solve. Even what appears to be the last two standing (Bahco and Pferd) don't make a proper taper.

I am purchasing these files for testing (with my own money) from reputable retailers - maybe they don't know, maybe they don't care. Certainly I know that Tools For Working Wood in New York is despairing of the situation (and surely they know more about this than I, and can therefore reseach better). They are need of around 1500 files per year, and that's just one retailer. They are currently selling Grobet (I think USA) and "can't wait to get rid of them". Supply is also patchy (which rings India bells a bit).

So, any assistance is greatly appreciated Chris. At the end of the day my forecast is that we will have to get a manufacturer on board. My first choice would be Liogier, because there are nearly there, but with a couple of difficulties to solve. If they can't be persuaded (because hand stitched rasps is their big go) then I'll have to approach Honauer.

Of course first preference is to find a current supplier, so the wheel doesn't have to be reinvented, but that's not looking too promising at all. The situation with Double Extra Slim files is so bad that people now have to use Needle files, which are not really appropriate for several reasons:
they are double cut
they are 3 Square which gives a sharp gullet instead of a rounded gullet
they are also more expensive and with shorter toothed areas, too much taper, and nasty stabby points which are prone to snapping off.

Thanks very much for the input so far - it's all helping.

just checked my "Vallorbe" Diamond needles. They were purchased from a French Vallorbe Distributor last year.

On the needles there is no logo of any kind, just 2112 (model #) D91 (grit#) and that is printed on.

There are also two Flat Habilis files. The only thing printed on them is "STRAUSS". A google search leads to this site:
Contact Details

which has it's headquarters in Israel. I cannot find any information about where they are made.

Anyone know if they are decent quality or not (I haven't used them much)?

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

just checked my "Vallorbe" Diamond needles. They were purchased from a French Vallorbe Distributor last year.

On the needles there is no logo of any kind, just 2112 (model #) D91 (grit#) and that is printed on.

There are also two Flat Habilis files. The only thing printed on them is "STRAUSS". A google search leads to this site:
Contact Details

which has it's headquarters in Israel. I cannot find any information about where they are made.

Anyone know if they are decent quality or not (I haven't used them much)?

Well, not easy to tell. I hope the pics below may help you in finding answers.

These are the handles of my Vallorbe diamond needle files. The markings are "D125" etched, and stamped: "grobet vallorbe swiss made" plus stamped as well the "running hair logo"

Files2.jpg


These are the handles of my Habilis files. On one side they read stamped "HABILIS SWISS 0" (the 0 being the cut), and on the reverse side they read stamped "fish logo" and "Glardon + Vallorbe". Bought from Brutch Ruegger in Switzerland (by far the largest tool supplier in this country).

Files1.jpg


Below a bunch of needle files and their original package. I bought these in Switzerland 30 years ago, so these are now New Old Stock. Notice that these are made of Chromium Steel, not just plain carbon steel.

Files3.jpgFiles4.jpgFiles5.jpgFiles6.jpg

Hi Brett,
I'm sure I've already mentioned this before, but have you tried the jewellery suppliers here's a catalog of files http://www.jewellerssupplies.com.au/...fs/P96_101.pdf

There are others but nearly all of them handle Vallorbe.

Regards
Ray

Cheers Ray, I've bookmarked that.

Does anyone know if Vallorbe/UMV/Glardon ever made saw files? And if not, why not? It seems a bit odd.

Well looky what I found - Taper Files made in Japan, and I'll bet they're good quality:





This Tsuboman site actually has a lot of stuff that could be interesting to metalworker. Some pretty funny Janglish interpretations too like "This file is kind of big, so 1 order is ok".

TSUBOSAN

Originally Posted by cba_melbourne

. Bought from Brutch Ruegger in Switzerland (by far the largest tool supplier in this country).

Thanks I was were to look for tooling in Switzerland looking at their prices they are really good I will have to go next time I visit Switzerland.

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Cheers Ray, I've bookmarked that.

Does anyone know if Vallorbe/UMV/Glardon ever made saw files? And if not, why not? It seems a bit odd.

I had another look for you. And I think I may have found your Vallorbe saw files. And an answer about the Grobet "pistol" logo.

I was previously only looking for "precision" files, because that is what I am normally interested in. But Vallorbe also makes a range of cheaper "engineering" files. And it appears that "sharpening" files are only made to this "engineering" quality. Unlike precision files, which come in blue boxes, engineering files come in red boxes under the F.L. Grobet label and the pistol logo (I have learned something).

- First you need to visit the UMV Vallorbe website site with the catalog downloads, here: Knowledge base on files, engraver's gravers and saws.
- then download the .pdf catalog named "engineer's files".
- open this catalog, and go to page 12. On p12 and 13 you find the range of "sharpening" files. I hope this is what you were after, I do not know how a saw file has to look, but I think the "taper saw file" at the top of p12 is what you are after.
- you may also want to download the .pdf file "a brief portrait of vallorbe swiss" for a short overwiew of the company

I hope one mistery is herewith solved. But I am sorry, your main question, where are these "red box label" engineering files made, is still open. Chris

Thanks for your efforts there Chris. I tried to download from there the other day, but the site was playing up. I wonder if that takes the whole thing back to this file:





It's quite tricky to tell from the pic in the PDF because it's so pixelated, but it looks very similar to the pic above. Claw Hama has a Grobet from a few years ago, and the logo is the same, but it's not printed. More of some kind of etch (I'll see it on Tuesday I think). That treatment tends to be blurry around the edges, whereas the printing is very crisp (it's actually the best bloody thing about the file )

I reckon the gun is to symbolise American Pattern (good choice of icon there boys). I still haven't taken a pic of the Vallorbe retail Card, but it matches up with the card shown in the pdf:
"Vallorbe Swiss"
Gun logo with "American Pattern"

Joel from Tools For Working Wood reckons that the "Swiss" Grobets have an "S" suffix in the part number, and the Indian ones don't. His "S" suffix files are still rubbish though. Mine does not have an "S". It also has "Distributed by Patience & Nicholson (NZ) Ltd". He (Joel) has been questioning Grobet USA and apparently even they are doubting the Swiss Grobets provenence, saying that the blanks could be Indian, but they can call them "Made in Switzerland" because th greatest value add is done there (whatever that is, could be just the packaging - seriously).

Anyway, thanks again for all your input. I think I can put the Vallorbe/Grobet saga to bed now, especially with those interesting looking Tsubomans. I have a Japanese jobbie arriving sometime this week (from the USA, where the retailer doesn't know what brand it is ), so I'm really keen to see it. He says it's hard to imagine a better saw file, so it must be pretty good, as he makes saw to sell.

Reply by Brit @ LumberJocks.com ~ woodworking community

Thanks Andre, very interesting. Hard to believe that the file in my last post is Swiss made (which is what your link to lumberjocks is saying). I guess it depends on how that is determined - could well be the biggest value add part. Also hard to believe that the file will cut the mustard, especially with some of the hearsay. Should know how it performs in a week or two.

Tried filing the toes of the test files today with a bigger Double Cut file. It made a small impression directly on the edges (as you might expect) but nothing on the face - just rubbed of the pearlite.

At least the files are hard.

Not.


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