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Thread: Slideway grinders go for a song
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14th May 2015, 10:33 AM #16SENIOR MEMBER
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I know what you mean. I can't say I've got (non) buyer's lament because I couldn't see any feasible, affordable way to get one of those grinders to my place, then I'd have no space to put it without building another shed, after which I'd maybe use it 4 or 5 times on my own machines.
Then what? In Tasmania, the chances of getting paying work for it at the same rate plumbers charge is minimal to nonexistent. The market is tiny. And, as we've seen on this forum, there's one hell of a reluctance by some people to spend as little as $1000 on regrinding a lathe bed.
Your situation in Rocky might be a little better what with more mining etc but I doubt it'd be a lot better.
Private ownership of machines like those is restricted to those people with a fair amount of space, reasonable amount of discretionary money and no need of making a commercial return on their sunk costs. More power to them, I regard my planers as being in the exact same category. However there's a good reason why I didn't buy that 4.2m bed planer you found for sale here in Hobart. Too much space, weight (freight cost) and money for the increase in shop capacity.
Yeah, the way grinders went cheap, but I understand just why they went cheap. I doubt I'd have bought one even knowing I'd be paying out less than $1000.
I'd rather go & visit Mark with a machine bed in the back of my truck and a fist full of cash in my hand.
PDW
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14th May 2015 10:33 AM # ADSGoogle Adsense Advertisement
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14th May 2015, 11:54 AM #17GOLD MEMBER
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I would have to assume those way grinders would take a fair but of time & effort to set up and install. The manual on my sg states it should be set on 8" of concrete base. Trying to level it without any movement and I now see why. What footings and reinforcement would a way grinder need? More than the average 4" slab in a shed! I doubt a lathe owner would be impressed if they went away with a lathe bed ground to the same profie as the persons shed floor!
Still, a nice score but what's happening makes you cry.
SimonGirl, I don't wanna know about your mild-mannered alter ego or anything like that." I mean, you tell me you're, uh, super-mega-ultra-lightning babe? That's all right with me. I'm good. I'm good.
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14th May 2015, 02:12 PM #18SENIOR MEMBER
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14th May 2015, 02:26 PM #19Senior Member
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I was speaking with the owner this morning working out the logistics for picking them up. He was pretty gutted by the prices but remained very helpful and accommodating with picking them up. He is going to arrange a local machinery mover to come in a specific day and load all the grinders one after the other to keep costs down. He could have just wiped his hands and said 'thats' your problem but to his credit he is being as helpful as possible.
I think these machines fall into the category of nobody misses them till they are all gone. I don't buy them to make money only because I have a great interest in this vintage of machine ( I have 3 Churchills now) and this is my 'hobby'. Luckily I live on a farm so already have trucks, forklifts etc to help with moving them so that keeps costs down and the workshop comes in very handy sometimes when I break something on the farm and can fix it myself.
At the moment I have a somewhat mummified workshop as I am planning a large addition to my shed (12m x 24m) and so a section of my current shed had to be removed to make way for the new section. Those machines have been shink wrapped and stored in a machinery shed for the time being. Will build the shed myself so it is a slow process as can only do it when I have some spare time. The floor is taking a long time as the foundations for the big jig borer and the slideway grinder will be done specially and I also have a huge (more than 10 tonne) stationary engine that will have its own foundations in the shed. Drainage issues,power pole issues,slope issues and provision for a 10 tonne travelling gantry all complicate the situation. Also a 7m x 12m section will be closed in for a clean room. Yes this will be my last shed and I will never be able to move. Somehow I have ended up with the machinery before the shed is built but you never know when specific machinery becomes available. Will be great in a few years and will keep me occupied for years to come.
My non machinery friends always think I'm mad but the costs are not as great as you think if you buy things slowly and at the right price. I have seen people pay more for a small chinese lathe package then I have paid for any of my machines. And the pleasure of using quality machines and tooling lasts a lifetime.
Anyway guided tours circa 2017
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14th May 2015, 03:55 PM #20GOLD MEMBER
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Well done to you! Fortune favours the brave.
Your setup may take some time but you won't be looking back once it's done. People on this forum have memories like elephants (well some do) and no one will forget that you have a ways grinder. That grinder will end up paying for itself in no time!
SimonGirl, I don't wanna know about your mild-mannered alter ego or anything like that." I mean, you tell me you're, uh, super-mega-ultra-lightning babe? That's all right with me. I'm good. I'm good.
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14th May 2015, 04:14 PM #21GOLD MEMBER
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14th May 2015, 05:46 PM #22Pink 10EE owner
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14th May 2015, 08:40 PM #23SENIOR MEMBER
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Sadly, my boat is eating all my money (which is typical of boats).
The point about slab thickness is a good one. I think the recommended thickness for my HBM is 14" which is not going to happen and its base envelope is maybe 3m x 1.2m. The slide grinders are going to need more than that for stability.
I am very glad that Mark rescued at least one of those, and if you'd bought one as well, I'd have been pleased also. We collectively don't need a lot of those machines about, but we certainly do need some. I'm happy to pay for services as required so I think that the machines going to members of interest groups is about the best outcome we can hope for these days.
PDW
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18th May 2015, 06:52 PM #24Pink 10EE owner
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I would think two foot + and solidly reinforced... I rough priced footings for the 10 footer at around $4000 for materials... After getting the Talyvel and seeing the concrete move when walking on it, and we are talking about machines that are the primary tool for machine manufacture so their level of accuracy has to be better then standard then you need substantial foundations that will not flex when the machine has a three tonne casting on the table that is moving from one end to the other constantly...
Light red, the colour of choice for the discerning man.
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18th May 2015, 07:38 PM #25Senior Member
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The discussion re slab thickness is interesting. I asked at CNC engineering re what they did as they had the machines in one of those generic units in an industrial estate. So ripping up the floor and putting in large footing would have not been easy. They said they did nothing the the floor and it was just the usual 4 inch slab as far as they knew. They did admit that they had to level the 16 footer fairly often but never did much to the "smaller" machines. None of the machines are bolted down. They all sit on 6 inch pieces of steel with adjustable screws every 18 inches or so. I think sub slab preparation is very important. Compacted blue metal, non swelling sub soils, some deeper footing under the levelling points, double reo and I was hoping to get away with 8 inch slabs under the slide way grinder and jig borer. Is there a good source of info on this sort of thing. Qantas had cork pads under the jig borer to try and isolate it from runway vibrations!!
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18th May 2015, 09:52 PM #26Pink 10EE owner
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I have read that the whole idea of bolting machines down solidly is to try to make the foundation part of the machine... I really do not know how stiff concrete is when it comes down to it.. I do know these sorts of machines probably should have their own foundation isolated from everything else by some squishy material, say foam.. The idea being, should the foundation move, the whole machine moves as one...
I also read about some specialised Japanese machine tool builder that makes super precision machines whereby the whole factory sits on piles driven 20 metres or more into the ground..
Another interesting thing I read somewhere... I think it is Deckel did not grind some sliding parts of there mills, but instead milled them on big jig mills...Light red, the colour of choice for the discerning man.
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19th May 2015, 08:29 AM #27Senior Member
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Think it's highly unlikely the slab would be 4 inch....looking at various industrial units in construction over the years, unless it was pretty shoddy! The old Dehavilland/Boeing facility at Bankstown, we had guys standing below floor level in the excavation there - and still hadn't reached the extent of the slab.
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19th May 2015, 10:03 AM #28SENIOR MEMBER
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Phil is probably your best local source of information so I'd start by asking him. There's a very knowledgeable man on PM who spent most of his working life setting up & repairing HBM's and the like, he's a valuable source of information as well. Tyrone Shoelaces.
When I built my shed I isolated the load bearingwalls from the slabs by pouring strip footings then poured floating slabs with heavy reinforcement on top of very heavily compacted hard fill. We put it down in layers and rolled each layer hard with a ride-on vibrating roller. I don't see any movement *but* I don't have anything as precise as a Talyvel so I'm simply not seeing what I can't measure, not that it's not there.
I'm cleaning & stripping my HBM at the moment after which it'll get steel pads under it and adjusted for level. The slab isn't really thick enough to gain much by bolting it down, I think. Were I going to pour a separate pad for it, I'd go at least 200mm thick, probably 250, and I'd embed bolts into the concrete.
Of course if you do something like that, it's a good idea not to plan on ever moving the machine.....
PDW
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19th May 2015, 05:30 PM #29
In another life I used to work in the office of an old family owned reptition engineering firm. It had been around since the forties and handed down from father to son, I worked for the son, himself getting closer to retirement. I remember the variety of old machines there, my favourite being an old very old BSA cam operated turret lathe which I believe did some wartime work. We also had brake presses, grinders, cnc mills and other assorted lathes doing a lot of work for the department of defence in earlier times. I remember a little of the DoD work myself.
The thing is, we had pressure on us to comply with ISO2000, which we couldn't do as it was going to cost too much to make it worthwhile. Slowly the good work dried up and we were left with jobbing. I left before it closed down but I still often think of those times and the things those immigrant turners could make and we're happy to pass a little of it on to me.
I regret it all going and it must have broken the 2nd generation owners heart, damn near broke mine.
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19th May 2015, 05:46 PM #30Pink 10EE owner
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Light red, the colour of choice for the discerning man.
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