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  1. #1
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    Default How would you tram a universal table?

    My mill is a universal one; for those not familar with the term it can mean a variety of things but in this case means that the table will swivel +/- 45 degrees so that it can helically mill gears and similar operations. This of course means the X and Y axis are moved out of a 90 degree relationship.
    When I replace the head after using it in a horizontal mode I tram the head so that it is "vertical" with respect to the table surface (after 40 years of apprentice training I should really run a stone across the dings in the table or even have it ground before making that claim...).
    However, when I swing the table around I usually only align it to the angular scale marks which strikes me as not being nessarily the most accurate. Does anyone tram their tables or has heard of a method that can be used? I did think of using a square plate keyed to the table (so aligned to the table long axis*) and using the shorter axis, measure across it. When the table is square the measured dimension should be the true dimension of the plate. This relies on the cosine though and as you approach 0 degrees differentiation becomes harder. Another thought is an accurate 90 degree block. If I align it with a DI so the short axis shows no indicator movement when traversed, if the table is at 90 degrees traversing the long axis should show no movement either. This of course relies on an accurate reference square.
    Any other suggestions? I'd really prefer something that is quick and could be done without having to break down a set up as swinging the table is sometimes easier than putting vices at angles etc.

    Michael
    *Having been pulled up many times for mislabeling my axis, I'm hesitant to name them. I know the Z axis is the axis of rotation but...

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  3. #2
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    Tram it square to the cross ways with a square..

    Or...

    your tramming tool dial indicator tool in the horizontal spindle and tram the front of the table, provided it is possible to do and the front of the table is parallel with the dovetail slides...

    Essentially the spindle is your reference and the table needs to be square to it...

    Or a flat long bar on the table, align it so it runs parallel with the ways and use your tramming tool on it... That is probably the easiest ...

    I could get photos to describe it better...
    Light red, the colour of choice for the discerning man.

  4. #3
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    Picture... Hope it explains a bit
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    Light red, the colour of choice for the discerning man.

  5. #4
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    Ueee is offline Blacksmith, Cabinetmaker, Machinist, Messmaker
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    I've done it both ways, like RC's pic above and with a square. Using a dial means you may have to take your vert head off, but then you are not relying on a square to be perfect. I think the pic RC posted is a faster way of doing it but only if taking your vert head off takes 30 sec's like mine does.

    Ew
    1915 17"x50" LeBlond heavy duty Lathe, 24" Queen city shaper, 1970's G Vernier FV.3.TO Universal Mill, 1958 Blohm HFS 6 surface grinder, 1942 Rivett 715 Lathe, 14"x40" Antrac Lathe, Startrite H225 Bandsaw, 1949 Hercus Camelback Drill press, 1947 Holbrook C10 Lathe.

  6. #5
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    That way would do it, although I can see that setting up a parallel so that it is parallel with the motion will add another step. The head on mine takes a bit more than 30 seconds to remove or replace though, so while it provides accuracy independent of a square a bit cumbersome for my set up. An interesting variation would be to attach a strip of material to the back of the table and once the table was square, machine that off so that there is a permanent (parallel) reference (save having to true up a parallel). Depends on whether the table swing will allow it - I find that at 45 degrees there is little room left between the column and the table.

    Another thought after looking at the picture is if the dove tails are perpendicular to the spindle it may be possible to compare them with a DI. The whole issue hinges on establishing and maintaining reference surfaces...

    Michael

  7. #6
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    Hi Michael,
    If you put a dial indicator on the table and reached the pointer over to the vertical faces of the column dovetail, you could wind the table backwards and forwards to get tram.
    Or am I missing something?
    When you pivot the table, the table dovetails pivot as well if I remember correctly.

    Phil

  8. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamwhisperer View Post
    Hi Michael,
    If you put a dial indicator on the table and reached the pointer over to the vertical faces of the column dovetail, you could wind the table backwards and forwards to get tram.
    Or am I missing something?
    When you pivot the table, the table dovetails pivot as well if I remember correctly.

    Phil
    That's how I'd do it, too.

    Bonus points, how do you re-tram a Deckel type all angle table where the dovetails *don't* move?

    PDW

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    That's how I'd do it, too.

    Bonus points, how do you re-tram a Deckel type all angle table where the dovetails *don't* move?

    PDW

    Indicator mounted on a tramming bar in the spindle as normal. ( I'm probably missing something obvious )

    Ray

  10. #9
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    My little 13 has a universal table that is adjustable in the XYZ axes. The vertical head, when mounted, is rotatable around the Y axis. Table tramming necessitates the installation of the vertical head which must be trammed before any fiddling with the table's alignment takes place. To tram the head I install a 30 taper slitting saw arbor in the head ( for want of something better ) and indicate off the arbor with a table mounted indicator.

    To tram the table, I use the ring ground to an accuracy unachievable by me, but not to young Josh - A Simple Tramming Ring for the Mill.
    and the wondrous Centricator. Even with the right gear it is painstaking. That painstaking that I'm tempted to scribe some fine alignment marks on the head and table's protractors and use a microscope ( the Marcel ) to ensure future alignment.

    Here's an old photo of the mill with its table askew and the ring before Josh's enhancement.

    Schaublin+13+Universal+Table+6_10+016.jpg 007 (Large).JPG

    BT

  11. #10
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    Then, you have the case where you have a universal head, thats two more axes of rotation...

    So on the FP2LB ( if we ever get around to getting the universal head repaired ) and on Ewans Vernier, it's now becoming obvious why it's easier to remove the vertical head..

    But you have to start over and tram the 2 axes of the universal head...

    Ray

    PS I must organize for Josh to make a tramming ring...

  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by RayG View Post
    Then, you have the case where you have a universal head, thats two more axes of rotation...

    So on the FP2LB ( if we ever get around to getting the universal head repaired ) and on Ewans Vernier, it's now becoming obvious why it's easier to remove the vertical head..

    But you have to start over and tram the 2 axes of the universal head...

    Ray

    PS I must organize for Josh to make a tramming ring...
    Organise him to make a few & put the extras up for sale.....

    My toolroom mill is like Bobs except next size bigger. Same 3 axis table & vertical head setup. I took the 3 axis table off & put the heavy duty box table on - that eliminated some axes of adjustment but more importantly it gained me another 70mm of space under the vertical spindle which is good because there's none too much there.

    Checking all those axes relative to each other and the world in general is a right PITA. Mostly I don't move mine unless it's really important to do it (like boring holes on an angle so I tilted the table to get the bore parallel with the horizontal spindle). The Victoria U2 is a piece of cake in comparison. Still, making tapered gib blanks should be a piece of pyss - a job on the list for sometime in the future.

    PDW

  13. #12
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    Default Tramming Gauge

    Hi Michael, don't know if this will help, but I've seen an item that has 2 dial indicators on it approx 150mm apart with a bar that fits in a collet on the mill. The head/table is trammed until the gauges read zero, tried to find a picture of it. I know a lot of you members like to make interesting tools and found this website to make one yourself: http://www.homemadetools.net/forum/m...-6451#post7733
    Kryn
    Last edited by KBs PensNmore; 18th Nov 2014 at 04:49 PM. Reason: found plans

  14. #13
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    Default

    I am assuming that your Universal mill is the traditional type where to mill helically, the table, inclusive of the lead screw is swivelled to the helix angle required. If this is the case then the way to tram the table is to mount a clock on the table and a straight edge across the vertical ways on the main column. With Toolroom mills the X axis is always at 90 degrees to the column so tramming a swivelling table in the X axis can be done with a clock mounted anywhere but on the table since the X axis ways are always at right angles to the column.

    Peter

  15. #14
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    Default Tramming ring?

    Needed something simple to tram the vertical head on my Cincinnati No 2 horizontal mill. Local engineering shop had a pile of discarded ball races around 250mm or larger, ex mining gear. Was told to help myself. The finish on them is good, and faces appear parallel, so for my purpose the outer ring of one of these is satisfactory.
    Combustor.
    Old iron in the Outback, Kimberley WA.

  16. #15
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    Default Tramming Gauge

    Hi Michael, don't know if this will help, but I've seen an item that has 2 dial indicators on it approx 150mm apart with a bar that fits in a collet on the mill. The head/table is trammed until the gauges read zero. I know a lot of you members like to make interesting tools and found this website to make one yourself: http://www.homemadetools.net/forum/m...-6451#post7733


    Kryn

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