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  1. #1
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    Default New type of engine?

    Spotted this on another forum, during my lunch break.

    Interesting Engine Design - The Home Shop Machinist & Machinist's Workshop Magazine's BBS

    Looks more than interesting, however, you make up your own mind.

    Ken

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  3. #2
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    No it's not particularly new or wonderful. Please don't take this as a criticism of you. It's great people are hopeful and optimistic.

    If I had a dollar for every "high efficiency engine" that's been shoved in my face over the last 30 years or so....I remember distinctly my tech teacher showing us the video on the sarich orbital engine then asking what we thought of it. Most of the kids had no idea but I started pointing out the problems. I didn't spot all of them but I did spot enough to know it was never going to fly.

    Sarich was a particularly poisonous con man, made himself 70 million by BS and playing people off against one another. Never produced a profitable product. The orbital engine company did manage to leverage the direct injection system that developed AFTER Ralph was long gone and make a few bucks, but a lot of people had been shafted before that happened.

    The more common problem is the well meaning inventor who comes to me (or someone like me) with their revolution. They are so invested by then that when I start pointing out why it ain't gunnu fly they get resentful and I've often been accused of trying to dissuade them because I want to steal their baby. I got sick of being abused years ago so now I often say nothing.

    I have seen only one truely revolutionary idea. It came from a friend now dead and sorely missed. He had decades of automotive design experience and quite an impressive career. Unfortunatly auto engineering is no path to riches and he had neither the money nor the time in the end to develop it.

    By the way Felix Wankel was a very very smart man. I used to borrow some of his texts from the library when I was studying and read them cover to cover. Unfortunately between his brilliant design and the customer lay the bogie of management/sales/marketing. They inflicted a few "improvements" which lead to the apex seal problems which took what ? 25 years to fix....

    There are many smart people in the world but they are rarely in charge.
    I'm just a startled bunny in the headlights of life. L.J. Young.
    We live in a free country. We have freedom of choice. You can choose to agree with me, or you can choose to be wrong.
    Wait! No one told you your government was a sitcom?

  4. #3
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    There is so much investment in the ottoman engine that I doubt we will ever see another engine style developed..

    There are many engine styles out there, but only the ottoman is mainstream.. The cost to develop a new engine is huge. especially with todays strict emission laws...

  5. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by .RC. View Post
    There is so much investment in the ottoman engine that I doubt we will ever see another engine style developed..

    There are many engine styles out there, but only the ottoman is mainstream.. The cost to develop a new engine is huge. especially with todays strict emission laws...

    I am not really sure that there is the incentive at the moment. As we know, the majority of inovations, although they may be truly ground breaking in their design, don't get to see production unless huge sums of money are thrown at them. I know you will be able to find an exception to that, but as a generalisation I think it holds water.

    Currently, any new design is probably sold to a major automotive concern, who then retains the patent. It may well be more profitable for them to just sit on it than develop it. This is what happened with our Ralph. Perhaps he did pull a fast one. I don't know.

    Until the financial benefit is indisputable present, there will be no new engines. There will only be development of the existing engines. Problem there is that they have advanced enormously over the course of a hundred years and must be by now getting close to the law of diminishing returns.

    The truth is that we do need a new engine, but the economy for that is not there.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  6. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by damian View Post
    There are many smart people in the world but they are rarely in charge.

    Nor are they often crash hot at maketing their product. There often has to be a fortuitous partnership. Rolls Royce, Daimler Benz etc.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  7. #6
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by damian View Post
    N

    Sarich was a particularly poisonous con man, made himself 70 million by BS and playing people off against one another. Never produced a profitable product. The orbital engine company did manage to leverage the direct injection system that developed AFTER Ralph was long gone and make a few bucks, but a lot of people had been shafted before that happened.
    It's fascinating isn't it that someone could make that much money from an idea that never worked. But the public never learns - take a look at the Firepower debacle. It was yet another fuel saving device that with even the most basic scrutiny would reveal it was pure BS. Yet so many people queued up to throw money at the company.

  8. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by TP1 View Post
    . But the public never learns - take a look at the Firepower debacle.
    My personal favorite is the sky car..... its been going since the early 1980s I believe, at least it's "on hold" now and not "next year". Although they have moved onto an eletric car.

    Here is a local one I wouldn't hold my breath on
    How it works

    Stuart

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stustoys View Post
    Here is a local one I wouldn't hold my breath on
    How it works

    Stuart
    THe first warning bell:

    "the Di Pietro motor uses a simple cylindrical rotary piston (shaft driver) which rolls, without any friction,"

    the second warning bell:

    "In this way compressed air (energy) consumption can be exchanged for higher torque and power output depending on the requirements of the application. "

    Frictionless and where does the compressed air come from?

    Not holding my breath either

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  10. #9
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    Default

    Well the piston does look pretty simple.... its all the seals I'm worried about

    As for the compressor 350Bar(no not psi... bar!) They are going to use the waste heat. "however if we are compressing air on a large scale this energy can be captured economically and put to use for heating our homes, for hot water, cooking or even generating electricity."
    You're going to have way more heat than you know what to do with lol
    Still its fun to read some of this sort of stuff now and again.

    Stuart
    And this is just rubbish to
    "A 4 litre internal combustion engine is in fact using approximately a 1/4 of a million litres of air per hour running at 2000 rpm. The consumption of petrol in this case is for generating hot air, it is that hot air that pushes the pistons and powers a vehicle. The pollution at the exhaust point can kill a person within a short time"
    1/4 of a million litres of air per hour "if running at full throttle"

  11. #10
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    What kills a lot of designs off is friction, complexity and sealing ability..

    And the fact it is easier to make round things then square things.

  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmiller View Post
    Currently, any new design is probably sold to a major automotive concern, who then retains the patent. It may well be more profitable for them to just sit on it than develop it. This is what happened with our Ralph. Perhaps he did pull a fast one. I don't know.
    I'm with Damian on this one, being an Orbital engine sceptic myself. Sarich made big claims for his original design, but eventually admitted he knew it wasn't a good idea technically. He said it was a way to capture investors' imaginations, to get them to invest so his company could go on to designs of real merit. As an Australian taxpayer, I was one of those investors unfortunately. In good company though, as BHP also put up lots of cash.
    I read in a motorcycle magazine an article critical of the original Orbital engine, by a modest Melbourne designer named Phil Irving. He pretty well pulled the Oribital to pieces, especially noting the very bad combustion chamber shape - lots of corners. The author had a pretty good track record, including some Formula One winning engines.
    When I was in Perth a couple of years ago, I happened to meet a machinist (had a nice Harrison M250 lathe at work) who said he used to work for the Orbital company. He said the company had lots of ups and downs, but Mr Sarich had a very inspiring manner, and a pep talk from him always made the employees feel they were going to do great things. He also said Sarich's workshops were always spotlessly clean and well-appointed. It must have been fun to work there then.

    Jordan

  13. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by nadroj View Post
    , by a modest Melbourne designer named Phil Irving.
    If memory serves, he was once asked how he came up with the bore size for one of his engines, people expecting a long answer about piston speeds and valve sizes etc, his answer was "that's the smallest bore you can get your hand in easily with a rag to clean it"(or words to that effect.) His autobiography is an interesting read.

    Stuart

  14. #13
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  15. #14
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    I failed to take the opportunity to meet Mr Irving when he was alive and I will regret that until I die. Some of my old friends (most also dead) knew him fairly well and I envy them. The only people I have met who have a single poor word on him I have no respect for. He was a mountain on a plain amongst mechanical engineers, up there with Carcano, and Wankel, and by all accounts a darn fine bloke also.

    I worked many years ago for one of Sariche's many collaborators. The litany of governments and companies who threw money at him based on promises he later happily broke makes for a long and sad read. The troubles of the orbital engine were multitude and insurmountable, no matter how much money or years were given it.

    I've met plenty of inspirational but ultimately hollow "leaders". Their achievments mostly pertain to their own pockets and egos. More than a few populate the parliment, to our deteriment.
    I'm just a startled bunny in the headlights of life. L.J. Young.
    We live in a free country. We have freedom of choice. You can choose to agree with me, or you can choose to be wrong.
    Wait! No one told you your government was a sitcom?

  16. #15
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    I don't understand that article. First it says it's an opposed piston engine then it says it's a single crank. Unless they are using a bellcrank or something similar it ain't a knocker. I can't tell from the photo.

    Anyway, some of the ideas they mention have legs. It'd be good if it works out, might make a nice engine. Be interesting to see how it compares to a direct injection 2 smoke though...
    I'm just a startled bunny in the headlights of life. L.J. Young.
    We live in a free country. We have freedom of choice. You can choose to agree with me, or you can choose to be wrong.
    Wait! No one told you your government was a sitcom?

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