Thread: What's your opinion on this QCTP?

Originally Posted by Tiger

Thanks for the replies so far. From the responses are you suggesting i give the H and F one a miss? By the way is that one a piston type? You've given me a few choices, are any one of them better suited to a 9 x 20?

The piston/wedge discussion only applies to the American Aloris QCTP. The piston type locks the toolholder by pushing it away from the toolpost. The Wedge typ locks the toolholder by pulling it towards the toolholder. In the former case, the contact or registration between toolholder and toolpost is only by the dovetail surface. In the latter case the contact and registration is by the much larger area of the flat surface. The latter is said to be slightly more rigid if used on a powerful industrial lathe, and have a slightly better repetition accuracy. I personally believe that this differences are true for genuine US made toolposets, but with the chinese made clones the piston is the better choice.

I own a China made clone of the the Aloris AXA-100 wedge type, with about 25 toolholders. I bought it because of the cheap toolholders (from the US, they are about half the price you would pay in Au despite the postage). The toolholders are fine if you replace the inferior soft grubscrews. But I spent lots of time improving on that toolpost. I got it better, but not near as good as an American Aloris (or the same model from the Us makers Dorian or DTM) would look and feel. It is like comparing a chinese noname spanner with a Stahlwille spanner. The internal finish of the Chinese toolpost is very rough. One other difference rarely mentioned, is that the Chinese version lacks the indexable clamping handle of the original, meaning that the handle when clamped may point to any arbitrary position, and the only way to change this is to add washers between handle and toolpost body. That said, it is perfectly possible to save up and one day upgrade to a genuine new or used toolpost, whilst retaining all toolholders as these are compatible.

The Toolpost on your first post is a copy of the British Dickson. It is neither a piston nor a wedge type. It grabs the toolholder by the central vertical T slot and pulls it towards the toolpost. It is a good toolpost, but the toolholders are expensive and not that easy to make your own.

Thanks CBA for clearing that up, i do have a chinese 9 x 20 as pictured. So your opinion is that the h and f qctp is ok, do,you have an opinion on what is the best value qctp for these type of lathes? image.jpg

Originally Posted by Tiger

Thanks for the replies so far. From the responses are you suggesting i give the H and F one a miss? By the way is that one a piston type? You've given me a few choices, are any one of them better suited to a 9 x 20?

That is a Dickson type.
Piston or wedge type are subcategories of the AXA/BXA style toolposts.
The Dickson has similarity to the wedge type, in that it pulls the tool holder into the body of the toolpost. That's reportedly what makes it better than the piston type, which pushes it away, supported only by the dovetails. I think the AXA does this better than the Dickson though.

The Dickson can be fitted with a adjustable handle for convenient clamping down of the body, not possible with AXA as it'd interfere with the tool holder handle. This sort: http://img.diytrade.com/cdimg/120133...ble_handle.jpg

The Dickson uses a separate handle to clamp the tool holder, which I think is better as it's never getting in the way in use.
I have the smallest size genuine Dickson on my Hercus 9 inch lathe, with a thick spacing washer under it.

Hare & Forbes has a page on size selection of their Dickson types.

Jordan

Originally Posted by Tiger

Thanks CBA for clearing that up, i do have a chinese 9 x 20 as pictured. So your opinion is that the h and f qctp is ok, do,you have an opinion on what is the best value qctp for these type of lathes? image.jpg

I have to clarify: the British Dickson is certainly ok, but I have no idea how good the H&F copy of the Dickson is. I do not even know if the H&F is made in China or India.

As I said, I use the AXA toolpost on my 10" swing Hercus 260. If anything, I feel that that the AXA is on the large side for the Hercus 260. But I also have a smaller lathe that is very similar to your 9x20, an Austrian emco Compact8. I have made my own clamp type quick change toolpost for it, because back then I could not find anything commercially available to suit that size. An AXA size would definitely be far too big for this lathe, it would forever be in your way. Also, the compound on this lathe is very weak, much weaker than an AXA toolpost. Phase2 now makes a scaled down AXA clone, see here:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-PHASE...item4d14709e16

The brand new Aloris MA is very nice, but expensive anfd really too small for a 9x20:
http://www.aloris.com/products/ma-mi...-tool-holders/

The smallest Dickson clone would probably be a good compromise for your 9x20, the one H&F sells as QA-100.

Have you ever considered making your own? It is not that hard, you can make it exactly the size you want, and it is a very rewarding project.

I use an AXA QCTP on a Chinese 9x20 (Steelmaster) and it is fine. Only mod I did was the 4 bolt toolpost mod, which I consider mandatory on this lathe no matter what tool post you use.

My AXA QCTP came from CDCO in the US as did all the extra tool holders, way cheaper than H&F and if anyone can tell the difference I certainly can't.

Again, there are more threads here on AXA QCTPs than you can poke a stick at.

CBA, i'm an infrequent user of the lathe so my skills are limited, i once thought about making my own qctp but the plan i saw involved machining dovetails and i find them hard enough to do in wood let alone metal. One of the reasons i am an infrequent user is because of the rigmarole involved in shimming for centre height. I was doing a project the other night and it just got too much, so i thought i'll get doen to h and f and buy one, the salesman didn't give me much confidence in the product so i'm here to see if it's any good.

Big Shed, i saw your mod for your qctp, i reckon i can do that easy enough, didn't want to wait too long for an overseas supplier hence h and f's product. Am looking at Cdco's site now.

Originally Posted by Big Shed

I use an AXA QCTP on a Chinese 9x20 (Steelmaster) and it is fine. Only mod I did was the 4 bolt toolpost mod, which I consider mandatory on this lathe no matter what tool post you use.

My AXA QCTP came from CDCO in the US as did all the extra tool holders, way cheaper than H&F and if anyone can tell the difference I certainly can't.

Again, there are more threads here on AXA QCTPs than you can poke a stick at.

It depends a lot what you use the lathe for. Predominantly small intricate jobs, or predominantly larger style jobs. The light 9x20 on the picture is a good choice for people whose jobs fit to 80% or more over the cross slide.

The problem with using an industrial AXA toolpost on a light hobbylathe is this:
- toolposts are sized by lathe swing (or center height). But a toolpost made for a 12" swing >500kg industrial lathe has to be much stronger-larger-clumsier than necessary for a 9" hobbylathe of 90kg.
- the oversized toolholder body seduces users into buying oversized tooling for the limited rigidity and power of a hobbylathe.
- This is not only so, beacuse the oversized toolholder CAN hold larger shank tooling. This is very much so, because the oversized toolholder is in the way of sight, making reaching intricate work very difficult.
- And this in turn seduces many users, to use way oversized tooling (for the power their lathe has) with way way excessive tool overhangs (for the light low-rigidity lathe they own), so they can better see what they are doing.

It is a vicious circle. One simply needs to accept, that light hobbylathes are not designed rigid enough for the sort of tool overhangs, that may be commonly used on an industrial lathe of same swing. Sure, the AXA toolpost can with ease handle both the rigidity and the overhang of 12x12mm tooling and larger. But the light hobbylathe that was designed for 6 and 8mm tooling cannot cope with these overhangs. You get flex and vibrations and chatter and an unhappy overall experience. It's like fitting your family car with 2m tall tractor tyres.

Better stick to a smaller toolpost. The ideal tooling size for the low power 9x20 is 6 and 8mm. If one has ever seen, what amount of material a powerful and rigid CNC lathe can remove with 8mm tooling in the blink of an eye and with greatest precision and a shiny surface finish, one will never again feel a need for any larger tool than 8mm on a measely 3/4HP lathe. The small tool lets you keep tool overhang small, and the light lathe will thank you for it with less chatter and better finish and an overall pleasant experience using it.

I use 10mm HSS tooling and don't experience chatter at all, especially not since doing the 4 bolt tool post mod. I have also used HSS 8mm and even down to 6 mm without any problem, not sure how overhang comes in to the equation?

When I use carbide tooling I also use the 10mm size.

Just because you can fit larger tooling doesn't mean it is necessarily the best choice.

If I wanted/needed to use large tooling I would have purchased a larger lathe and larger QCTP.

Originally Posted by Big Shed

I use 10mm HSS tooling and don't experience chatter at all, especially not since doing the 4 bolt tool post mod. I have also used HSS 8mm and even down to 6 mm without any problem, not sure how overhang comes in to the equation?

When I use carbide tooling I also use the 10mm size.

Just because you can fit larger tooling doesn't mean it is necessarily the best choice.

If I wanted/needed to use large tooling I would have purchased a larger lathe and larger QCTP.

That is what I think. People do not measure tool overhang with a rule. They judge it, unconsciously, by comparing proportions. A 6mm shank tool overhanging 50mm looks just plain wrong. A 12mm shank tool overhanging the same 50mm does not cause the same degrree of anxiety. And a 20mm shank tool overhanging the same 50mm looks rock solid. It is not though. For a very light lathe like a Chinese 9x20, it is not the flex of the tool shaft itself that matters. What causes chatter is to the greatest proportion the lever arm, from the tool tip to the center of where the coumpound slide attaches to the cross slide. Then its flex in the cross slide and saddle, and twist in the bed. And finally, there is also a proportion of flex in the tool shaft, but it is in comparison almost negligible given the power restrictions of this lathe.

An oversized toolpost I think tricks the brain in several ways. Firstly, and this is a fact, the larger a toolpost the further out the toolholder. I also believe many user unconsciously uses a larger than healthy overhang to better see what the tool does, because an overly tall toolpost hides the tip of a tool clamped with minimal overhang from sight. An oversized toolpost with oversized tool also gives rise to a wrong confidence in rigidity, which cannot be met by the rest of the lathe.

This is why I do not believe in choosing a toolpost too large for the lathe. One size smaller than ideal is in my opinion better than one size too large.

Originally Posted by cba_melbourne

the larger a toolpost the further out the toolholder.

One of the trade-offs for most QCTPs is the resulting overhang.
Standard, shimmed toolposts have the load over the top slide ways, rather than over air.

I'm looking at my Hercus 260, wondering if it'd be worth tapping another mounting hole in the top slide, farther to the right so as to bring the cutting load to a better supported position. That could be done on the 260, as it has a plain top surface, not so easy on T-slotted types.
It'd still have air under the tool holder, unavoidable, but at least it'd be bearing down on the dovetail ways and not tending to lift the other end of the slide.
The alteration would be invisible in either mounting position.

Jordan

Originally Posted by jackaroo

Hi Jon, that is the E size from Createtool or L2992 from H&F, it does look a little overrsize on the hercus, I havent tried since installed, I'll try to sneak out this weekend to give it a test. Let me know if you want me to see more photo of differnt angles.

Trong

Reading the very informative posts above re QCTP sizes, I suspect the A size Multifix would perhaps be better for me.

That said I would be very interested to hear about your thoughts regarding the E size on the 260 as this is perhaps the best guide/judgement of all for me & my 260.

Thx
J


Thx
Jon

I think the A size would be fine. It may be a touch on the small size for the C10 but only a touch. I have not used it enough to say how much i do or don't like it over the BXA i have on the Antrac, but the first thing i have noticed is the visibility is excellent. Because there is no handles directly on top of the post you can see the tip of the tool very easily. I also like the fact the locking handle comes off easily and is indexable. The first drawback i can see (and there have been comments about this on PM) is the height adjustment bolts are very small, maybe M5, and if you drop the holders, even just into the chip tray they are likely to bend. The holders are of similar proportions to the BXA holders.

The E sized holder is not much taller than the A it is larger in diameter though, and you can buy holders up to 25mm in the E size.

An A set will cost you $70 shipping so USD $300 to your door via DHL. I got 3 extra holders and postage was $90 IIRC.

Ew

Originally Posted by Big Shed

I use an AXA QCTP on a Chinese 9x20 (Steelmaster) and it is fine. Only mod I did was the 4 bolt toolpost mod, which I consider mandatory on this lathe no matter what tool post you use.

My AXA QCTP came from CDCO in the US as did all the extra tool holders, way cheaper than H&F and if anyone can tell the difference I certainly can't.

Again, there are more threads here on AXA QCTPs than you can poke a stick at.

Have sent 2 emails to CDCO but no reply as yet, just want some idea of freight cost.

He uses USPS Priority Mail International, it will fit in a Medium Flat Rate Box, cost about $US60

You fit in more tool holders and/or other tooling p to the volume of the box or 20lbs.

Takes about 10-14 days to get here.

Try this email address:

[email protected]

His name is Frank (or at least that is the name he uses.