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  1. #16
    Mobyturns's Avatar
    Mobyturns is online now In An Instant Your Life Can Change Forever
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    Unfortunately thats afterwards it's a pity they won't inspect before someone gets hurt.

    Either way I am no longer on the committee (YAY!) and my recommendations about what should have been done are in writing.
    Bob, I agree with the "unfortunately that's afterwards" comment how ever that also applies to many wood workers / turners when it comes to general safety, electrical safety, machine maintenance etc. We tend put things off or not to take action before an issue becomes a safety hazard and a problem. I'm not sure why that attitude prevails. I don't believe that it is a cultural or Aussie thing as a slack attitude to safety seems to cross cultures, borders & oceans.

    I can't believe how much effort people will use to justify why not following widely accepted safety protocols is OK. It must be a rebellious streak, or a disdain for authority that seemingly "takes away their freedom of choice."

    There were a number of private WH&S consultants who for a fee would review and advise on work place safety matters, but they seem to not be so common these days. Must be too high a premiums for liability or professional indemnity insurance now.
    Mobyturns

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  3. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by rustynail View Post
    I would have thought a Dog Man's Ticket would have been a prerequisite in a public environment like a Men's Shed?
    This is a really good question

    A men's shed is not a public environment.
    Only members can technically enter the shed after signing in, and use its facilities.
    Members are typically insured only if they are signed in, against medical expenses above that covered by medicare and >$500.
    Members of the public can only enter on signing in and remaining accompanied by a shed member.
    The insurance covers public liability provided certain things have been done.

    Technically to be covered by insurance, tickets are required for work that requires tickets.
    At our mens shed this is applied in the case of electrical work and welding (yes we have qualified welding inspector as a member) but nothing else that I can think of.
    I know of a few other things that have been carried out without without a ticket, with differing degrees of care.

    The question would be, does the operation we undertook to lift the gear off the truck require a dogging ticket.

    According to Work Safe WA

    A dogging licence is not required to sling and direct a load when the load remains in the clear view of the plant operator and there is no requirement to exercise judgement in relation to:
    1) which sling to use.;
    2) how to sling the load; and
    3) the condition of the sling or the load and its centre of gravity.
    Therefore, for a simple load such as an engine block, a dogging licence is not required if the person conducting the lift has:
    4) predetermined instructions on how to attach the specific load, e.g. specific directions on how to connect, and what slings to use;
    5) a maintenance program to ensure the lifting gear provided for the lift is inspected regularly by a competent person and is in a suitable condition for use; and
    6) the load and the lifting device are positioned so that the load remains within sight of the operator at all times during the lift (this does not prevent a person giving directions, e.g. for final alignment).

    If visiting a workplace, a WorkSafe inspector may require evidence that the above requirements are being met.

    Worksafe will not visit, unless someone dies or is seriously injured.

    So my reading of this is a ticket is not required however the main point the shed would fail on is point number 4) i.e. there is no SOP available for the operation of the hoist. It was after all a borrowed hoist. However I do know the borrowed hoist is subject to OHS rules/inspection etc at the uni.
    SOPs are strongly recommended (not mandated, because they can't) by the Mens Shed Association.
    However, there has been some resistance to use SOPs at the mens shed.
    We have SOPs for most machines but not the hoist.
    I have already told the main shed coordinator that the shed needs an SOP for the hoist.

  4. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobyturns View Post
    There were a number of private WH&S consultants who for a fee would review and advise on work place safety matters, but they seem to not be so common these days. Must be too high a premiums for liability or professional indemnity insurance now.
    What is really unfortunate is we have no need for private OHS consultants.
    We have a number of members with very significant industrial experience that could perform a detailed inspection at no cost.
    In 2014 I suggested 2-3 of us with that experience perform a monthly walk around with a basic safety check sheet but this has not be actioned.
    As far as I know I am the only shift coordinator that deliberately walks around and does a quick safety check before other members arrive, and the only member to undertake a general annual OHS survey. We did reasonably well on the annual survey, but of course there are still gaps which I highlighted to the committee which have not been actioned.
    I know some of the coordinators that walk around and tidy up and will attend to obvious safety issues if they see something but it's not a safety focused inspection.
    All this and other factors is why I resigned from the committee.

  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    The question would be, does the operation we undertook to lift the gear off the truck require a dogging ticket.

    According to Work Safe WA


    A dogging licence is not required to sling and direct a load when the load remains in the clear view of the plant operator and there is no requirement to exercise judgement in relation to:
    1) which sling to use.;
    2) how to sling the load; and
    3) the condition of the sling or the load and its centre of gravity.
    Therefore,
    for a simple load such as an engine block, a dogging licence is not required if the person conducting the lift has:
    4) predetermined instructions on how to attach the specific load, e.g. specific directions on how to connect, and what slings to use;
    5) a maintenance program to ensure the lifting gear provided for the lift is inspected regularly by a competent person and is in a suitable condition for use; and
    6)
    the load and the lifting device are positioned so that the load remains within sight of the operator at all times during the lift (this does not prevent a person giving directions, e.g. for final alignment).

    If visiting a workplace, a WorkSafe inspector may require evidence that the above requirements are being met.



    So my reading of this is a ticket is not required however the main point the shed would fail on is point number 4) i.e. there is no SOP available for the operation of the hoist. It was after all a borrowed hoist. However I do know the borrowed hoist is subject to OHS rules/inspection etc at the uni.
    SOPs are strongly recommended (not mandated, because they can't) by the Mens Shed Association.
    However, there has been some resistance to use SOPs at the mens shed.
    I think the problem is hiding in plain view.
    Bob was the "plant operator".
    He didn't need a dog man because the load always remained within "clear view" .
    He borrowed the hoist so was responsible for its condition (taken on trust) and was also the plant operator. Because it was a borrowed hoist, Bob would also be responsible for any SOP.

    I shouldn't need to go on.


    PLEASE.
    I'm not "having a go" at Bob. I'm just analyzing the information we have on the incident and posting a conclusion.
    If I were asked for a recommendation, it would be:
    after placing a load onto a trolley or other movable platform, remove all lifting equipment from the load before moving the platform.
    regards from Alberta, Canada

    ian

  6. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ian View Post
    I think the problem is hiding in plain view.
    Bob was the "plant operator".
    He didn't need a dog man because the load always remained within "clear view" .
    He borrowed the hoist so was responsible for its condition (taken on trust) and was also the plant operator. Because it was a borrowed hoist, Bob would also be responsible for any SOP.
    I shouldn't need to go on.
    PLEASE.
    I'm not "having a go" at Bob. I'm just analyzing the information we have on the incident and posting a conclusion.
    If I were asked for a recommendation, it would be:
    after placing a load onto a trolley or other movable platform, remove all lifting equipment from the load before moving the platform.
    Yep I agree.
    Have also since realised that I wasn't signed on in the shed attendance registry, so if push had come to shove I would not have been covered by insurance.
    I have written a safety information sheet about hoist operation and submitted it to the committee. It will be interesting to see what happens.

    FWIW I passed by the shed yesterday to drop off some purchases and none of the gear was unwrapped.

  7. #21
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    Too many chiefs and not enough indians? I think this is where a lot of the problems are going to arise with work safety issues in the future for organised groups like Mens Sheds.
    I hold a dogging ticket. I dont have to have one but I'm glad I do. The course undertaken was well worth the time. Accidents happen, a ticket isnt a guarantee but the knowledge that comes with it can be invaluable.
    In Bobs case, it was a small hook. You want to see the damage a large hook can do. They could use your head for a bird bath.

  8. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by rustynail View Post
    Too many chiefs and not enough indians?
    Possibly more like too many indians and no chiefs.
    I assumed the shed coordinator would be in charge and he assumed I was.
    In situations like that someone has to be designated "in charge" and everyone follows their instructions.
    That's gone into the SOP.

    I think this is where a lot of the problems are going to arise with work safety issues in the future for organised groups like Mens Sheds.
    I hold a dogging ticket. I dont have to have one but I'm glad I do. The course undertaken was well worth the time. Accidents happen, a ticket isnt a guarantee but the knowledge that comes with it can be invaluable.
    In Bobs case, it was a small hook. You want to see the damage a large hook can do. They could use your head for a bird bath.
    I agree, there's too many simple things taken for granted.

    I've worked on high rise builds so I have a good idea what big hooks and dogman failure can lead to.
    I was dogman for a couple of weeks on a high rise building site in the 1970's after the previous dogman was held responsible for not properly closing a concrete bucket and half a buckets worth of concrete dropped from about 25 stories up landed on top of a dozen cars (including an open Merc convertible) on St Georges terrace in Perth. No tickets involved back then, they just grabbed the next labourer on site that they needed to keep busy. I found balancing the slings on the thin long reo bar packs the trickiest because it flopped around like a dead fish. I got half an hour of basic instruction from the crane driver - mainly about slinging loads and that was it. After ~ two weeks they needed someone on the end of a jackhammer so that was me and they gave the dogman's job to an older bloke who was on light duties.

  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post

    The glasses are fine, they're those highly flexible kind that you can drop and almost stand on and they spring back into shape.
    They are amazing things, I lost a pair into the hopper of a 40' auger running 60 Tonne of wheat an hour. they came out the top end and were used for the next 4 years.
    I would love to grow my own food, but I can not find bacon seeds

  10. #24
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    Learned a long ago the importance of giving verbal commands and warnings before any action when working with others. Things like "Clear," "Ready," "On three," "Down," etc. Make sure everyone knows ahead of time what the sequence and commands are. Sounds too simple and too obvious, but it's a key habit when working with others. I've seen loaders knocked off truck tailgates, pallets lowered onto toes, etc.

  11. #25
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    I've spent most of my 30 year working life out on offshore oil rigs. I've seen alot of accidents including ones that resulted in fatalities. The common root cause of 99% of these accidents...poor planning and poor risk analysis and mitigation. Just yesterday I was viewing footage of a recent incident on a land rig in Egypt. A rig mechanic was working on a top drive when someone energized the thing resulting in the bales flying around like a giant metal whip and throwing the mechanic against one leg of the rig's derrick...you can clearly see his head whip against the derrick leg and then the lifeless body slumping to the floor. A proper pre-job planning meeting would have identified someone inadvertently energizing the top drive as a risk and it would have been mitigated by following a lock out procedure....the Drilling Contractor in question would have had such a procedure documented as part of their safety procedures.....the guys on this job chose not to follow it.
    Whatever note you blow youre never more than a semitone away from the correct one....(Miles Davis)

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