Thread: Ca Finish

Originally Posted by soundman

One thing that must be understood ... a good CA finish is not fast.

the various friction polishes are way faster.

cheers

Sorry but I cant agree with these statements.
It takes me no more than 15 mins to apply an eight coat CA high gloss finish.
While it is arguable that some friction polishes are quicker, it very much depends on what type of finish you are trying to achieve. A long lasting high gloss (mirror) finish is difficult to achieve and is unlikely to stand up to the average user pen wear and tear.

Using thin wipe on poly is OK for the one off pens you may want to do, but if you are doing a batch of pens for a sale then CA is by far the number one choice.
I do on occasion do a high gloss white shellac (zinsser) finish. I cut it by half and it dries in seconds, but does require about twice the number of coats to finish it. Polish the same as CA and you get that nice French Polish type of finish, but this still takes about twice the time to do the same job as CA.

Heres a video link that is 25 mins long, it took me a couple of minutes to hog down the blanks which aren't included, but I rarely spend more than 30 minutes from start to finish to complete a pen.

I've used CA from -5c to +30c with 90% humidty using this method and to date (100 pens +) I have never had a failure using the CA finish.

As a footnote I shot this video yesterday so it was 25C and raining with 80% humidity, you can see the result for yourselves. This is my first video so it has some typos in it and an unintentional effects as well. I will get better at doing these as I go along.

Met I can bang out a simple acrillic from mounting the blanks to writing a line in about 15 minutes, I can do friction polish on timber in about 2 minutes.

No matter which way you look at it CA is not fast.

Then you consider the failures, long term durability and various problems people have with CA ...... I good CA finish is not fast. ...... I've seen people slather it on and get a gloss out of it pretty fast ..... I do not consider that a good finish.

BTW I don't count "coats"..... I consider that concept to be irrelivent.

OH yeh I have daily users that I finished in Shellawax that seem to be standing up OK after 3 or 4 years ...... Shellawax suffers a bit if it goes thru the wash.

cheers

The OP was considering warming the blanks before applying CA. Personally I dont think that is wise as it may well promote rapid drying of the CA before being able to spread it evenly.

Banging out a friction polish is something most folks can do in very short order. Doing an acrylic pen is somewhat different to the process for timber pens, not greatly so, but I too can easily produce a finished item in roughly 15 mins.

Fortunately I dont slather the CA on but apply it in a controlled process. I also count the number of coats for a reason. I know that that is sufficient for a really good hard finish and I dont want to waste CA by applying it unnecessarily. To say that it is irrelevant would suggest that you have far deeper pockets than I do.

When I do a project I dont rush the process but work in steps that I dont vary the method as I know exactly how I want the item to be finished and the result from doing this.

I suggest that the OP (tony) takes a similar methodology to ascertain what is happening in his process. It may well be the brand of CA that is the root cause. I use the Starbond variety and to date have never had an issue with it no matter what the weather conditions are.

I would do a couple of dummy blanks and see what transpires, I for one would like to know the outcome.

I don't count "coats" ...... because I think the whole concept of a "coat" of CA is realy not what is happening ..... its not like laying up a coat of paint ...so often I find I have to sand off all I have applied before I apply more .... just to get a good, flat, fully choked surface ....... and so many are obsessed with the number of "coats" they apply.

How much and how many times you have to apply CA will vary depending on the timber in question ......how thick an application you do, how many cracks and voids need to be filled and how the whole process goes, on that particular pen.

because I use a cotton bud I use very little CA and waste very little.

Because I now seal the ends of my blanks before I mount up for the first time, again before the final cut and again before I start finishing the job, I am having no problems with the ends sticking to the bushings, I don't have to cut the blank from the bushings and I don't have sharp edges on the finished blanks

cheers

Thanks Neil, I took on board Soundman's advice immediately and do not put Shellawax over CA, and now you have confirmed it.,; We all tend to do it a little differently, I found that for "cheaper" pens like slimline, the 3 coats of CA,(more or less) to do an "ok" job! if I am doing high end, then I start applying more CA to get a "deeper" finish/shine etc. the sealing of the ends a great idea and probably i will need to make a handy little very sharp tool to cut away from the bushes on pens that I use much CA.
It is amazing how much i am learning (again!!!). Thanks Amos

I have only just read all of the comments, wow, you boys are really fast! Sometimes it takes me ages to do a pen, I will try looking at the link tomorrow. Thanks for your input CA has always caused many of us costernation.. Amos

Originally Posted by soundman

I don't count "coats" ...... because I think the whole concept of a "coat" of CA is realy not what is happening ..... its not like laying up a coat of paint ...so often I find I have to sand off all I have applied before I apply more .... just to get a good, flat, fully choked surface ....... and so many are obsessed with the number of "coats" they apply.

How much and how many times you have to apply CA will vary depending on the timber in question ......how thick an application you do, how many cracks and voids need to be filled and how the whole process goes, on that particular pen.

because I use a cotton bud I use very little CA and waste very little.

Because I now seal the ends of my blanks before I mount up for the first time, again before the final cut and again before I start finishing the job, I am having no problems with the ends sticking to the bushings, I don't have to cut the blank from the bushings and I don't have sharp edges on the finished blanks

cheers

Ah I understand what you were driving at, heh and I for one arent obsessed by coats, although if you follow the IAP forums as I do, there sure are some coat counters there

What brand of cotton bud? I ask because in the past most that I have tried pull strands off pretty damn quick, its why I went with paper towels.
Yup very good point that about sealing the ends. I do as well. I tend to prefer the plastic polishing bushes just to keep the turning bushes clean.

Originally Posted by Dust Mite

Ah I understand what you were driving at, heh and I for one arent obsessed by coats, although if you follow the IAP forums as I do, there sure are some coat counters there

What brand of cotton bud? I ask because in the past most that I have tried pull strands off pretty damn quick, its why I went with paper towels.
Yup very good point that about sealing the ends. I do as well. I tend to prefer the plastic polishing bushes just to keep the turning bushes clean.

Dust Mite, Soundman said in another post that he wets the Cotton Bud, I have the same problem-cotton bud sticks to the wood ! I watched your video with many thanks, I watched it twice!! It is amazing how quickly you did it, I am going to TRY it out, as I do with most advice, thank you, Amos

Glad to be of assistance. You do some pretty cool work.

Tried what I saw in the Video. 1. not used to applying at that speed,--I need gloves-ca goes off quickly-hot!
2. Some success, but not smooth enough, I need more practice!Amos

Yes it took me a little bit of practice to get used to the speed of the lathe but the results I got are significantly better.

I found that in hot weather the CA would tend to tack-up if the lathe was turning too slowly. It regularly exceeds 35C in summer in my tin garage so its a case of working quickly. Same applies if I use lacquer or shellac as a finish. In fact the CA dries a little more slowly than the other two.

I dont use spray-on Lacquer as the results are too variable.
I use the same method with poly, lacquer & shellac, using the wipe-on technique modified as needed for each job. I store an applicator pad in a sealed glass jar for each variety and this does away with the need for paper towels. The pads do eventually dry out, but its a case of months rather than hours.

Try the lathe speed at around 1600rpm and see how you get on. Once you are used to it you can turn and finish at full rpm if you want to. Some of the guys in the states have lathes that turn at 4000 rpm and they do everything at that speed. Others advocate the lowest speeds for finishing.
At the end of the day its a balance as to what you find does the job each and every time.
For me I do everything at the speed I stated earlier, and to date ( fingers crossed ) have never had a CA finish fail.

Just as a footnote, not all CA varieties are equal.
Here in NZ the suppliers have Starbondin stock. To date its proved very reliable, incredibly sticky and when finished as I describe, provides a super high gloss coat that is completely transparent. It's inexpensive compared with some brands and available in two or three different sizes.

Keep us posted ... its all a learning curve.

Originally Posted by Dust Mite

Yes it took me a little bit of practice to get used to the speed of the lathe but the results I got are significantly better.

I found that in hot weather the CA would tend to tack-up if the lathe was turning too slowly. It regularly exceeds 35C in summer in my tin garage so its a case of working quickly. Same applies if I use lacquer or shellac as a finish. In fact the CA dries a little more slowly than the other two.

I dont use spray-on Lacquer as the results are too variable.
I use the same method with poly, lacquer & shellac, using the wipe-on technique modified as needed for each job. I store an applicator pad in a sealed glass jar for each variety and this does away with the need for paper towels. The pads do eventually dry out, but its a case of months rather than hours.

Try the lathe speed at around 1600rpm and see how you get on. Once you are used to it you can turn and finish at full rpm if you want to. Some of the guys in the states have lathes that turn at 4000 rpm and they do everything at that speed. Others advocate the lowest speeds for finishing.
At the end of the day its a balance as to what you find does the job each and every time.
For me I do everything at the speed I stated earlier, and to date ( fingers crossed ) have never had a CA finish fail.

Just as a footnote, not all CA varieties are equal.
Here in NZ the suppliers have Starbondin stock. To date its proved very reliable, incredibly sticky and when finished as I describe, provides a super high gloss coat that is completely transparent. It's inexpensive compared with some brands and available in two or three different sizes.

Keep us posted ... its all a learning curve.

I noticed in the Video that your CA ran quite quickly out of the dropper, I noted my CA is running a bit gluggy or slow, I am positive that CA reacts differently at different temperatures and AGE; I have noticed this on a few occassions in the past and when I had a fresh bottle of CA I achieved better results. Tried again today, results not crash hot, but not giving up!!! Amos

MINWAX Polyurethane doesn't care what the humidity is to get an easy to apply, fast, durable finish each and every time

Les

I occurs to me that you may need to use Boiled Linseed Oil, much as the American pen-turners do when applying CA.

Sounds to me that the brand of CA you are using has a slightly different viscosity then the medium that I start with, so it may well be more sensitive to temperature and humidity. The American boys have quite a few problems because of the extremes between hot & cold weather, so some of them prefer to use BLO as a leveling agent.

I dont use BLO myself if I'm using shellac for a piano grade finish but instead use the lightest olive oil I can find as it easier to use than BLO. Mineral spirtis can also be used but not with CA.