Thread: Dalbergia sissoo AKA Pennyleaf

A big fan of Indian Rosewood ever since years ago seeing hundreds of slabs around a Village so many years ago in Photographs. Mongrel colour to show it seems but I know it is outstanding Mate.

Peter.

Its magnificent Brett. Rosewoods are all beautiful and this is no exception. Its a pity they darken on aging but can still be appreciated.
Well done

PS: Another common problem with Rosewoods (Dalbergia spp) is their propensity to cause allergic responses - wood turners & users (eg serious contact dermatitis). A warning should be issued to users .. just a suggestion.

That's very nice Brad.
Just as a matter of interest, I am going to put up for sale a bunch of these same pen blanks in the next few days, so keep your eyes open if you are interested.
Rgds,
Crocy.

Originally Posted by Penpal

A big fan of Indian Rosewood ever since years ago seeing hundreds of slabs around a Village so many years ago in Photographs. Mongrel colour to show it seems but I know it is outstanding Mate.

Peter.

Cheers Peter, probably not quite as nice as Cocobolo generally, but I have a few bits that I reckon is as good.

Originally Posted by Euge

Its magnificent Brad. Rosewoods are all beautiful and this is no exception. Its a pity they darken on aging but can still be appreciated.
Well done

Thanks Euge. They do get darker unfortunately, I have a few lumps cut off an old dead tree that are like dark chocolate, probably save that for tool handles and the like.
I have noticed that when putting the CA finish on, the longer you work the finish back and forth to smooth it before it dries, the dark colouring comes out of the wood and mixes with the CA and can tint the whole piece a dark brown and you lose the colour variations. So that first coat has to be applied as quick as possible, I wasn’t quite quick enough here, as I got some colour bleed.

I did try once to wipe the blank with acetone, but it takes the dark bits away and leaves you with a much lighter coloured blank. Maybe a spray finish is the answer for this problem, any thoughts on this ?

Originally Posted by Old Croc

That's very nice Brad.
Just as a matter of interest, I am going to put up for sale a bunch of these same pen blanks in the next few days, so keep your eyes open if you are interested.
Rgds,
Crocy.

Cheers Crocy. Looking forward to seeing your blanks. Though I don’t need to buy any, I probably got a couple of hundred Pennyleaf blanks cut up already.

Thanks Euge. They do get darker unfortunately, I have a few lumps cut off an old dead tree that are like dark chocolate, probably save that for tool handles and the like.
I have noticed that when putting the CA finish on, the longer you work the finish back and forth to smooth it before it dries, the dark colouring comes out of the wood and mixes with the CA and can tint the whole piece a dark brown and you lose the colour variations. So that first coat has to be applied as quick as possible, I wasn’t quite quick enough here, as I got some colour bleed.

I did try once to wipe the blank with acetone, but it takes the dark bits away and leaves you with a much lighter coloured blank. Maybe a spray finish is the answer for this problem, any thoughts on this ?

The Dalbergias are noted for their oils making the wood oily. It's these oil that probably darken on oxidation / light exposure in time but also provide the colour contrast. So almost any finish rubbed on may act like a solvent dissolving these oils from darker areas where they are probably in higher concentration. Rubbing then smears the colour around reducing the nice contrast.

Maybe you should practice as you have so many pennyleaf blanks? Choose a few ordinary or imperfect ones, try different finishes and application methods to see which work best. Re acetone, its an excellent solvent but maybe too good. Maybe try alcohol ( or vodka.. 40% alcohol and water ). Such experiments would probably be worth it and many members would benefit. Maybe take a pics before and after and make notes what you do and use so you can verify and refine the best finish or application method. Finishing techniques are outa my league!

Cheers, Euge

Yes I assumed it was probably the oil coming out.
Whatever you use tends to spread it around and turns the blank a more uniform brown if you are wiping, which is why I thought spraying a finish on to seal the colour in without moving it around might work. Maybe a sealing coat of that spraycan lacquer, then CA over the top ?

I do have plenty of blanks to experiment with, but I am time poor, so it might have to wait until I retire .
I think I would get in trouble using the wife’s vodka, maybe some metho might be a better choice

Originally Posted by Ironwood

Yes I assumed it was probably the oil coming out.
Whatever you use tends to spread it around and turns the blank a more uniform brown if you are wiping, which is why I thought spraying a finish on to seal the colour in without moving it around might work. Maybe a sealing coat of that spraycan lacquer, then CA over the top ?

I do have plenty of blanks to experiment with, but I am time poor, so it might have to wait until I retire .
I think I would get in trouble using the wife’s vodka, maybe some metho might be a better choice

You're not retired? OMG! I thought everyone on here was "retired"... kidding!
Metho might work but don't get it mixed up with your wife's vodka. (Have you driven her to drink? )

Spraying on a finish first to "seal in" the oil or colors (if possible) but it may bleed or some finishes may not stick ... but lets be positive. Give it a go when you have a break from life's obligations.

Retirement means I’d probably just turn one of my hobbies into a job

If I get some spare time on the weekend, I might cut a strip and try a few different things to see if I can come up with something. Will post my results if it happens.

Ironwood perhaps I can save you some time so you can make more interesting pens.

Unfortunately there are many timbers, and not just the Dalbergias, that are prone to solvents in finishes "muddying" the colours in the wood or woods, and to a similar extent from sanding issues. Many of these issues start well before applying a finish. Poor sanding technique, or more particularly poor sealing of the timber before sanding is a major cause. The "muddying" can be used to our benefit with wet sanding some porous woods, but isn't desirable on some woods nor laminations / segmented work.

I've found this out, and have developed processes to minimize issues the hard way by trial & error with my small linear laminations and segmented works.

Any "wipe on" solvent based finish has the potential to cause problems by "dissolving" some of the naturally occurring extractives etc in the wood and then transferring it onto other areas. My first major issues were with New Guinea Rosewood / Nara / Padauk / Amboyna laminations with Silver Ash. When I started having a good hard look at other laminations / segmented pieces I could see evidence of the "muddying" in various degrees from a minor filling of pores in lighter woods to almost a full on stain job. Sanding at high rpms creating high heat will also cause this effect.

Some timbers are not affected at all, while others are affected in varying degrees by different solvents. Shellac is a pretty universal "go to" as a under sealer for problem woods however the alcohol in Shellac when used as a wipe-on finish will cause issues with NG Rosewood. When sprayed on as a "just wet coat" with a small airbrush it won't cause issues, or even misted on with an atomizer spray bottle. CA glue will cause some muddying IF you follow conventional sanding processes.

This is where sharp tools and good turning techniques save the day! For a CA finish, get the best off the tool finish that you can achieve. For pens I consider this a #400 standard finish. DO NOT SAND well not now. Apply a good CA coat as a sanding sealer and let dry. Now sand and follow your finishing process.

Nitro cellulose finishes will respond well to a similar process - however wiping on the sealer coat in any solvent based sealer / finish may / will cause some transfer of colour. My best advice is do not wipe on any sealing coats. Easier said than done. Best to apply the sealer as a spray on really problematic woods.

Thanks for your thoughtful post Moby.
The pen pictured above had no sanding done until after the CA was applied, I cut the blank down to 0.1mm undersize with the cutting tool, then built up with CA to slightly oversize then sanded back down.
I did it this way to prevent spreading the colour by transfer of the dust, I had intended to do the first coat of CA so quickly that I wouldn’t spread the colour, I think I wiped the CA from one end to the other and back again, then stopped. There was still some wet CA on my foam applicator which had started to turn brown, so the spreading had already started. I’m not sure that I could do it any quicker than that and still get a full coverage.
I think a sprayed on sealing coat will be the answer, I know that the CA is compatible with the spraycan lacquer, as I use it on decals to seal them before the CA touches them.

I have another blank almost ready to try this on, will post my results.

OK, here are a couple of pics. The Pennyleaf blank has been turned to 11.9mm on the ends, no sanding done.
The first pic is the raw timber. The 2nd pic is after the blank has been sprayed lightly with lacquer ( matt finish, its all I have left )
The lacquer has raised the grain slightly, but shouldn't be a problem. It hasn't darkened the timber noticeably at all, but it seems to have knocked the shine off the more resinous areas.
Now to see if it has sealed it enough to prevent the muddying effect when the first coat of CA is applied.
I will wait until later this afternoon to let the lacquer dry, tomorrow would be better, but I am a bit impatient.
DSC_9595.jpg

DSC_9615.jpg

Well I can happily report that this process has worked. When I applied the first coat of CA, I worked the applicator back and forth about 6 times , no colour bleed at all.

I’ll let the CA harden overnight, will sand and polish tomorrow. Photos to come tomorrow.

Excellent ... you are the hero today!!
Turners will know what to do ... if they are not in a hurry to finish off

Excellent outcome. It really is a matter of suck it and see when it comes to applying finishes to problematic woods. So many nice pens could be outstanding pens if turners would only take the time to apply a decent finish.