Thread: What's wrong with Friction polishes?

Thanks Neil

I didn't realise EEE shouldn't be used before Shellawax, as that was how I was thinking of trying it (when I got around to it).

Russell.

Guess I was under the impression that the "ultra Shine "was needed as well before the glow, if this is not the case ,then what do we use the ultra shine for as I thought it was basically a fine abrasive to prepare for the finish coat of polish, I am happily using the glow for a finish ,and not too much inclined to try the other finishes , I actually like the aroma that comes off when using glow,almost a perfume scent hehe.

Originally Posted by gawdelpus

Guess I was under the impression that the "ultra Shine "was needed as well before the glow, if this is not the case ,then what do we use the ultra shine for as I thought it was basically a fine abrasive to prepare for the finish coat of polish, I am happily using the glow for a finish ,and not too much inclined to try the other finishes , I actually like the aroma that comes off when using glow,almost a perfume scent hehe.

I quess that is why Neil has a website and there are instructions on the product, so you can find out the answers for yourself.

Yeah I know you only read the instructions when it doesnt work - i do that too.

Cheers

Now I am confused properly ! hehe

Shellawax is best when applied directly to the timber on pens ie sand to minimum 1200 grit then apply the shellawax. Do not use EEE-Ultra Shine prior to Shellawax.

On the ultra shine instructions tripoli powder an ultrafine abrasive, The polish is designed to be used in conjunction with shellawax and shellawax cream or as a finish in its own right, it has the ability to eliminate all sanding marks from most timbers ,and can greatly reduce your sanding time while leaving a blemish free surface (burnished) pre polished ,ready to apply your finish to. It then goes on to describe methods of use and finishing prior to applying shellawax or shellawax cream.

Something not adding up here

Originally Posted by ubeaut

It really doesn't bother me what finish is used, however it's a bit disappointing to constantly hear of people using products wrongly then telling others that the product doesn't work.This problem is rife when it comes to finishes and I'm talking about all finishes across the board here.
Cheers - Neil

Apologies if any of that was me.. didn't mean to get anyone upset.
And I can certainly agree about it being fast and easy. But not about it being as
durable as other finishes. Perhaps I'm doing something wrong.

I think some of us (ok, me. ) might be hooked on the "2 weeks" because I was
thinking of perspiration (water) from the hands.. so I find the finish to last much better
if I apply it and then don't touch it for a couple of weeks. (how many of us can do that?)
But handling it straight off the lathe, I find it gets dull right away. (as in minutes/hours)

Again, I might be doing something wrong.. and if so, I hereby give you permission
to shoot me.

Originally Posted by gawdelpus

I actually like the aroma that comes off when using glow,almost a perfume scent hehe.

LOL .. reminds me of Grandma getting ready to go out to play Bingo

Originally Posted by ubeaut

Shellawax is best when applied directly to the timber on pens ie sand to minimum 1200 grit then apply the shellawax. Do not use EEE-Ultra Shine prior to Shellawax.

Is this where I have been going wrong then, Neil? I've always used EEE before Shellawax as per this info and while it does look great initially the pen has dulled off in as little as a couple of weeks.

Originally Posted by ubeaut

Just to clear up a couple of points.

• Shellawax and Shellawax Glow are extremely long lasting if used correctly. For pens and other constantly handled work you need to have at least 2 or more applications some people apply as many as 5 coats.

• Shellawax Cream is not ideal for pens and will dull off quickly.

• Shellawax is best when applied directly to the timber on pens ie sand to minimum 1200 grit then apply the shellawax. Do not use EEE-Ultra Shine prior to Shellawax.

....

Cheers - Neil

Thanks Neil

couple of questions:

Will shellawax successfully go on over shellawax cream (yeah I know, used the wrong stuff )

What's the recommended waiting time between applications (I notice that the instructions say dry almost immediately). Is it better to wait say 5 minutes or an hour before successive coats or won't it make any difference.

The EEE instructions say can use first on raw timber, then use shellawax. Is you comment above to be taken as specific to pens?

Thanks in anticipation

Nick

PS
Anybody got any ideas for getting about a dozen pens disassembled so the right finish can be applied?

Originally Posted by Sawdust Maker

PS
Anybody got any ideas for getting about a dozen pens disassembled so the right finish can be applied?

You could tell a 3 yr old not to touch them ..

Heres a bit more info.

EEE is for use under Shellawax and most other waxes or over pretty much any finish.

Shellawax works best when applied directly to raw timber.

EEE does not have to be used under Shellawax but it's designed to be compatible with the Shellawax so it can be used.

Shellawac was originally designed for high end exhibition quality turnings. In this case it's most often a one or two application finish as there's little or no handling of the work. Most of these pieces are purely decorative and as they're basically museum or collector quality they are usually handled with kid gloves and kept purely for display.

On pens and other small items like knife handles, magnifying class handles, yo-yo's and things that are being constantly handled it is best to apply multiple coats to the work beginning with the first coat being applied directly to the timber which has been fine sanded to at least 1200 grit or above. EEE, although compatible will leave a minute amount of wax on the timber which may soften the finish minutely. This is not to say it won't let the Shellawax do its job. However after doing many small items and tests over the years I still prefer to use the Shellawax on raw timber for small constantly handled items,

I also prefer not to use EEE on pens and other pieces turned on metal mandrels because it's easy to discolour the timber with metal from the mandrels and spacers if you're not careful when working the EEE on the timber.

Shellawax isn't the be all and end all finish for pens or any other type of turning. Wish it was I'd be worth a fortune and retired. It won't give the best results on all timbers, nothing will. There are some timbers that you can try a dozen finishes on and still get bad results in the long run.

Then there's personal preference to take into consideration, choice of timber and a dozen other differing factors which in the long run will affect the ultimate finish and the way it lasts.

All I can say is.... On hard, close/tight grain, figured timber, there's nothing that I've ever come across that will give the same amazing results as the Shellawaxes and if used in multiple coats the finish should outlast the life of the pen and if it dulls with use as most will do buff it up with a clean piece of rag it will respond and look brilliant again.

Shellawax can be used over Shellawax Cream and will definitely bring up a better finish even if rubbed on by hand.

Waiting time between coats... It's up to you, anywhere from immediately to the next day there is no set time for this. No reason why a new application can't be applied 5 years down the track so long as the surface is washed down well before applying it.

But handling it straight off the lathe, I find it gets dull right away. (as in minutes/hours)

As for it dulling off straight away, there must be a problem somewhere with the application, the timber or you.

• You: I had a bloke doing classes years ago who had the ability to dull off almost any finish he came in contact with. Very clammy hands. We could always tell which turning and carving tools he used as there would be rust spots come up (within a day) where his fingers had been on the tools.
• Timber: Not all timbers will look the same or are suited. Timbers with any moisture or natural oils ie. Camphor Laurel, NSW Rosewood, Huon Pine or any green timber (as in not dry, not as in the colour) will all dull off quickly. Most boring woods like Morton Bay Fig and many whitewoods will look dull, as they suck in light, where darker figured timbers will come to life and flash the light back at you like opal or tiger eye does.
• Application: This can be anything from not sanding fine enough to using something else first, too much or too little polish, using something over the top etc, etc. However the most likely problem is poor surface preparation.

Possible that none of these are to blame but highly unlikely. The other thing to consider is that there is often a haze that builds up at the end of the polishing process. this is the wax from the finish being drawn to the surface and it it isn't removed with a clean soft cloth it will harden and look dull within minutes to hours. All that's needed here is a rub with a clean soft cloth. to remove it.

We have a demo piece of Osage orange approx 12mm diam which was polished with the old formula Shellawax around 20 years ago now. One application then a second some 3 years later because it was left laying in about 10mm of water after a storm for a week or so. It has literally been handled by thousands of people over this time, it has been dipped in coffee, had coke poured over it and it still has a brilliant finish. We use it at all our demo's to bash the other demo pieces to show how tough the finish is when used correctly.

Anybody got any ideas for getting about a dozen pens disassembled so the right finish can be applied?

There is a knock out kit you can get. Probably from the sponsor at the top of this forum or other suppliers. However you should be able to do them by hand. Give it a try on one an see how you go. Put a little Shellawax on ta soft clean rag and rub like crazy until the desired finish is achieved.

______________________________________________

Finally I am constantly amazed at some of the garbage timber and terrible workmanship I see used in pens, and presented to the public for sale at exhibitions etc. Very seldom do I see a pen that I would actually say "I want to own that". I'm not talking about the plastics and non timber pens.

Pen turning is pretty cheap to get into and pretty easy to do. However it's not something that most pen turners do well, even though they might think they do.

The few who do it well, do it extremely well. The rest are just pen turners

The "just pen turners" need to take a careful, closer and more critical look at their turning, the timber they use, their techniques and their finishing. Strive to do better, excellence is entirely doable by all.

Sorry didn't mean this to turn into a pick on the pen turners saga.

Hope it is of some help.

I'll go get on with my day now.

Cheers - Neil

Thank you for taking the time out of your weekend to reply, Neil. I am sure it is appreciated by all.

Originally Posted by ubeaut

• Timber: Not all timbers will look the same or are suited. Timbers with any moisture or natural oils ie. Camphor Laurel, NSW Rosewood, Huon Pine or any green timber (as in not dry, not as in the colour) will all dull off quickly.

Oh no! Most of my own stuff is Camphor Laurel!! Does giving it a metho rub or something help. or is it just a lost cause?

Thanks for that detailed explanation. Why can't the rest of you guys answer in this much detail when I ask a question?

As for being a Pen Turner, a pen mangler, or an artiste, I have no idea which category I'll fall into. Hopefully not the mangler, and I honestly thing probably not the artiste, as I'll never have enough time to perfect my skills to that level.

I'm wondering though, is it a skill, that everyone can reach the highest level given enough dedication, or is it an innate talent, that some have, and some don't?

Finally, how do you tell the difference? Every picture I've seen on the forum looks good to my inexperienced eye, so what's the criteria for "perfection"?

Once again, great info on the Shellawax. I'll definitely give it a try when I can get my hands on some.

Thanks. Russell.

Thanks Neil

Originally Posted by Toasty

Thank you for taking the time out of your weekend to reply, Neil. I am sure it is appreciated by all.

Hear, Hear. Thankyou Neil. Good advice as always.