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17th December 2015, 11:30 PM #1Retired
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NEW resource for Incra wonderfence - generate custom joints
A little while ago I was lucky enough to get a new wonderfence setup to complement all the other Incra doodaddery that's gathering dust.
Well, I blew it all off and had a play with it and the metric Master Reference Guide.
What was obvious were the lower number of joints compared to the Imperial version (51 vs 26, absent some of the good ones too). So, I wrote to them and asked a few questions. Well, they don't want to produce another metric MRG or produce any more tapes, but we discussed how they are generated and discovered... the secret sauce....
SOOOOOO... I have the beginnings of a neato spreadsheet that will create box joints, dovetails, double box/dovetails and double-double box/dovetails with metric bits and self-customised tapes.
In it, one places their desired bit diameter, bit angle, cut spacing and it will generate TWO things... first, calculate the missing parameter of either Depth Of Cut or Cut Spacing and SECOND it will generate all the tape measurements.... the blue cuts and the red cuts.
You can then mark these in mm on the back of your existing tapes, or make new ones, or follow the printout. It won't generate pictures.... yet (later, Ill write a java program to do that)
Obviously this in no way eliminates any of the books. It is to complement them. The program will assume you know what you are doing.
My thoughts are to use multiple different dovetail bits to generate truly exotic joints. These calcs can't readily be done by hand or guesswork (unless you can do tangents and divide by Pi in your noggin).
If you are interested in getting a beta to test out, say so here.
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17th December 2015 11:30 PM # ADSGoogle Adsense Advertisement
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18th December 2015, 07:17 AM #2
...waiting with baited breath.
Got the metric conversion and was disappointing and eventually went back to imperial.
Haven't used it in anger for a year or so now but next year I have a lot of projects on my plate, and would dearly love to go back to metric.
Being a chippy it's an absolute brain#*%k to use feetsis and inches
Looking forward to seeing what you come up with Evanism.
Cheers
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20th December 2015, 12:08 AM #3Retired
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Well, 90 percent of the problem is now solved. Every single router bit suggested is imperial and every dovetail cutter has exactly one height in which it is effective. The Incra patterns rely on imperial bits and metric measurements, so they work only where there is an overlap/convergence of both systems.
Hence the lower number of metric patterns.
The answer is to use metric bits. Ive grabbed the carbitool catalogue, going to plug all those in and see what it pumps out.
The other thing that is missing is a router bit setup tool. It needs to be nothing more than a guide, but this is missing, but easily calculated. This will eliminate the first scrap-test-first method..... As long as your projection measurement is very good!
Edit: all the damned router bits are damned imperial. Really? REALLY? We are putting spacecraft on comets, asteroids on other planets, build semi-sentient computers, science to probe the very fabric of the universe itself, bridges 18km long and meta-materials with mind bending capabilities.... and allllllll our woodworking gear is in a stone age measurement system used by ONE country.... Imperial? REALLY?
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20th December 2015, 01:37 PM #4
Hey! Be fair - Imperial is used by the international economic powerhouse of Liberia, too!! (Now mostly ebola-free. Coming soon - adult literacy rate of over 60%).
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20th December 2015, 03:40 PM #5
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20th December 2015, 03:56 PM #6
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20th December 2015, 04:31 PM #7
Im interested in the incra system and hope to find this thread if and when it happens
Dave TTC
Turning Wood Into Art
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20th December 2015, 11:56 PM #8
I just love these starving artist types, they come up with all sorts of good ideas, you may not know this but most American scientists and engineers work in metric but as you said sadly not in the woodworking area.
SBPower corrupts, absolute power means we can run a hell of alot of power tools
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21st December 2015, 12:39 AM #9
I think the last thing you have done today is upset anyone, you come up with a very good way of solving a problem that will be useful to many on this forum so keep at it.
SBPower corrupts, absolute power means we can run a hell of alot of power tools
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21st December 2015, 01:27 AM #10Retired
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It's a very complex problem to solve. Looking at the Incra books, they've solved it with grunt testing, I've solved it mathematically.
The fact we can't buy metric bits is a hassle. It is of no consequence for through dovetails, but for blind dovetails the upper diameter is critical. There is exactly one height they work for.
I thought to put in some hypothetical Bits.... 9, 10, 12, 13 and see what comes out. Maybe Carbitool will be interested in making a kit to go with the outputs.
I've written a PHP program that outputs the pattern as numbers. One can input the bits they have and it will "show" what can be done. It's all text and ugly as sin, but with a decent cold spell and time (my brain stops when it's hot) I'll output it in some sort of GIF.
Once this is solved we can go completely feral with super exotic overlapping and "shadow" styles. Fun!
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21st December 2015, 12:23 PM #11
Starving Artist and completely feral, my god this is going to be good. Evanism, I assume you are using an imperial to metric conversion table in the SS, i.e. put in the imperial router bit size and it converts to metric type of process then calculates the required metric measurements for setup?
SBPower corrupts, absolute power means we can run a hell of alot of power tools
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21st December 2015, 01:20 PM #12Retired
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It gets a bit more complex, but essentially, yes.
Lets take the example of a carbitool bit (page 13 of CARB-I-TOOL - Router Bit and Accessories Catalogue - NOVEMBER 2015 ). The T1018 is 1/2" 15° bit. ( There aren't many to choose from....). Its 12.7mm and cutting surface is 13.5mm.
If we are using Imperial measurements on the Incra jig, it is a trivial matter, for the 1/2" matches up into the 1" (1/32") divisions. The maths is easy. Simply make an A cut every 1" and a B cut using every 1/2" between. Simplicity itself. (once one get the height right). Everything is dead easy to get right. Creative decorative dovetails can be trivially made just by moving the cuts +/- a 1/32" or more (or less). Very tight to very fat pins can be made in your head.
But for the metric, we need to have our first A cut, followed by an arbitrary distance (let's call it 14mm) for the next A cut. The distance then needs to be worked out from the inner edges of both cuts that compliments these and the pins then cut. So the B cuts are never the same as the A cuts. Its a super-major PITA. (12.7 25.4 38.1 50.8 63.5 76.2 88.9 101.6 114.3 127)..... my explanation is very poor, a picture would help.
Of course, all of this would be completely obliterated with metric router bits. A 10mm bit would achieve the same ease, no BETTER, than imperial. The angle is irrelevant. Same with 9mm... 11mm... 13mm... BUT NOT 12.7mm!!!
This is why I cursed so floridly in the post above. Imperial I can understand (base 60 is used in IT) but it just doesn't work in this application. (Superbunny - it happens https://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msp98/news/mco990930.html a $328 million spacecraft vaporised when it hit the atmosphere as some scientists used imperial in their calcs!)
Im on a bit of a war-path, as I have the Leigh and its super dooper fabulous, but I also have the TSLS32 and Wonderfence and doing quick-and-easy bulk dovetails would be amazing for sales.
Perhaps Carbitool or even Aldav can use his connections to make them!!!
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21st December 2015, 01:56 PM #13
Hi Evanism
looking for metric router bits ??
here is a partial list
Diameter I L Angle Shank Order No. CMT 5.5 4 43 17° 6 718.053.11 CMT 5.5 4 43 17° 6.35 818.053.11 CMT 6 8.3 60 7.5° 6 718.060.11 CMT 6.35 6.35 51 8° 6.35 818.065.11 CMT 6.35 8.3 63.5 7.5° 6.35 818.064.11 CMT 6.35 8.3 63.5 7.5° 12.7 818.564.11 CMT 8 6 44 18° 6 718.079.11 CMT 8 6 44 18° 6.35 818.079.11 CMT 8 9.5 52.5 9° 6.35 818.080.11 CMT 8 9.5 54 8° 6.35 818.081.11 CMT 8 9.5 63.5 9° 12.7 818.580.11 CMT 9.5 7.3 43 19° 6 718.093.11 CMT 9.5 9.5 52 9° 6 718.095.11 CMT 9.5 7.3 43 19° 6.35 818.093.11 CMT 9.5 12.7 60 8° 6.35 818.097.11 CMT 9.5 9.5 52 9° 6.35 818.096.11 CMT 9.5 9.5 60 14° 6.35 818.098.11 CMT 9.5 9.5 52 9° 8 918.095.11 CMT 9.5 9.5 63.5 9° 12.7 818.596.11 CMT 11.1 15.9 60 8° 6.35 818.111.11 CMT 12.7 12.7 52.4 14° 6 718.127.11 CMT 12.7 10.3 60 18° 6.35 818.132.11 CMT 12.7 12.7 52.4 14° 6.35 818.128.11 CMT 12.7 12.7 62 14° 6.35 818.130.11 CMT 12.7 16 60 10° 6.35 818.133.11 CMT 12.7 20.6 70 8° 6.35 818.129.11 CMT 12.7 12.7 52.4 14° 8 918.127.11 CMT 12.7 20.6 70 8° 8 918.129.11 CMT 12.7 12.7 63.5 14° 12.7 818.628.11 CMT 13.5 19.05 61.5 7° 12.7 818.635.11 CMT 14.2 9.5 51 14° 6.35 818.142.11 Festool 14.3 13.5 46 15° 8 490990 Festool 14.3 13.5 46 15° 8 490992 Festool 14.3 16 50 10° 8 491164 CMT 15.8 22 60 7° 6 718.158.11 CMT 15.8 22 60 7° 6.35 818.158.11 CMT 15.8 22 60 7° 8 918.158.11 CMT 15.8 22 67 7° 12 918.658.11 CMT 15.8 22 67 7° 12.7 818.658.11 Festool 16 13.5 46 15° 8 490993 Festool 16 12 55 15° 12 491097 CMT 16.7 12.5 49 20° 8 918.167.11 CMT 17.4 25.4 78 8° 12.7 818.674.11 CMT 19 22 60 7° 6 718.190.11 CMT 19 22 60 14° 6.35 818.191.11 CMT 19 22 60 7° 6.35 818.190.11 CMT 19 22 60 7° 8 918.190.11 CMT 19 22 66.7 7° 12 918.690.11 CMT 19 19 77.6 14° 12.7 818.691.11 CMT 19 22 66.7 7° 12.7 818.690.11 Festool 20 17 49 15° 8 490996 Festool 20 26 58 10° 8 491165 Festool 20 14 57 15° 12 491098 CMT 20.6 31.7 84 8° 12.7 818.706.11 Festool 24 15 58 15° 12 491099 Festool 30 18 60 15° 12 491100 regards from Alberta, Canada
ian
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26th December 2015, 07:30 PM #14Member
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Hi Evanism,
I am handy with c# if you are interested in porting you work to something a little more robust then PHP.. Will make graphics output easy too.
Give me a yell if you are interested..
Have Fun
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28th December 2015, 05:21 PM #15SENIOR MEMBER
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Interested to see where this goes. Would certainly be great to be able to make more metric variety. Good luck evanism.
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