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25th May 2017, 09:51 PM #16Senior Member
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Well that's interesting. Have I broken an unstated rule or offended the woodturning gods??? One mention of OH&S and everything goes quiet. Does that mean there isn't an issue or its simply not talked about?
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25th May 2017, 10:31 PM #17
Oh dear, you have transgressed
Well for me handles are not so important as the tool that hangs off the end and like many I, discovered un-handled cost less. But seeing I make many of my tools it follows I will make the handles. As mentioned elsewhere I like my handles this way, not that way . This is ergonomics and OHS at work here. As I have fairly particular thoughts on what my handles should be, do and be capable of.
If you go into it there are some serious studies on the making of handles for various uses etc I ran across this man years ago.
found this so theres a fair bit about the science
http://ergonomics.uq.edu.au/eaol/handle.pdf
https://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/ergo...ooldesign.html
https://mpatkin.org/ergonomics/handle_checklist.htm
Designing the Perfect Grip - Of Handles and Homepages - DESIGNING *for humansInspiration exists, but it has to find you working. — Pablo Picasso
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26th May 2017, 10:50 PM #18GOLD MEMBER
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If it came with a comfortable handle it stayed, though most of my tools have handles I turned.
The most comfortable handle I bought was a P&N.Turning round since 1992
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27th May 2017, 02:40 PM #19
I think that when it comes to ergonomics, having the lathe set to the correct height for the turner is no. 1 priority.
No. 2 is setting up appropriate lighting.
I rank tool handles at about the same priority as I would custom ergonomic handles on hammers, cutlery or pens & pencils...
This is not say it's not important... in some cases. There are some tools which need to be held in very specific ways and/or have a limited range of movement. eg. mounted deep hollowers. If spending any great lengths of time on these (which one does tend to do when using such specialty tools) then a good handle design is a must.
But the average daily users? Nar.
- Andy Mc
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28th May 2017, 01:15 AM #20GOLD MEMBER
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My thoughts:
If one has more time than money, one makes.
If one has more money than time, one buys.
If you can't find something to buy that fits the particular need, you make.
I make mostly bowls and tried to make a few tool handles and had a lot of trouble with the "accursed skew". With the encouragement of Retired and others I persisted and after around 25 hours of lathe time with skew I now use the skew as entertainment and as a break from my "serious" bowl turning.
I hate doing anything as practice so I make a tool handle, which is useful. I heat with solar and wood, so when I am splitting firewood and find a nice straight grained hard, dense, quarter I set it aside for a handle. Same with interesting grain. It is nice to pick up a gouge and admire pretty grain on the handle.
When I was struggling with the skew, I had several HSS from Craftsman and some highly rated UK makers, along with an 18mm one from a Chinese 8 tools for $20 set.
The one that I had the best luck with was the junky Chinese carbon steel one with a very small handle which caused my hand to cramp. I have re handled it and use it on dirty gritty timber or when I might encounter a nail in a repurposed chair or table leg. I no longer have trouble with the "good" skews. At least no more than usual.
I have big hands and arthritis and found the handles provided by even Crown, Sorby, Henry Taylor, etc. were too small and when used for long periods of time caused pain and cramping. Overall I find that the more expensive the tool, the better the handle, but even with that they are too small for long use. Some cheap tools will have good steel but bad handles.
I have a couple of 16mm traditional grind bowl gouges that I use for hollowing out big bowls. I have big fat, long, handles on them that I can hold for hours without cramping. They are around 35mm in diameter and about 450mm long with the tool sticking out about 200mm.
Some tools used only for a few minutes at a time, such as a parting tool made from a bread knife, still has the original handle. Same for the tool I use to make the spigot on a bowl to grab with the chuck.
I don't have and tools with detachable handles. The long and strong bowl gouges are a real pain to sharpen to a swept back grind using a jig as the length and weight of the handle gets in the way. The longest one I grind as a "bottom feeder" as I can do that free hand. I see an advantage in having just the steel to put in the jig. Old Croc's solution in the photo above or in another thread looks like a good one.So much timber, so little time.
Paul
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28th May 2017, 09:09 AM #21
Phil
I think you pretty much answered your own question or at least suggested the answers.
In making your own handle there can be:
1. A need for a handle (missing or damaged or deliberately purchased that way)
2. A handle that offends your sensibilities
3. A handle that is sized wrong (for you)
4. The desire to personalise
5. The knowledge that you can produce a better product
6. The use of special timbers to produce an effect or even continuity.
7. It is cheaper.
In purchasing a ready made handle you are comfortable with:
1. Knowing it is ready to use out of the box or packet
2. It is very likely durable
3. It may well be expressly suited to purpose
4. You can get on with your work, which is your primary focus.
5. Relatively it is cheap
Myself, I rather like making my own handles. I make them for chisels, files, screwdrivers and a few other bits and pieces. The irony is that I have made the majority of the handles for my turning tools (and the tools themselves for that matter), but the only turning I do is for handles. I have never turned a bowl!
Regards
PaulBushmiller;
"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"
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28th May 2017, 09:44 AM #22Skwair2rownd
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Very interesting thread. I have a mixture of tools I bought with handles ( a subset here being handles made by other owners ) and ones with handles I made myself.
My initial forays into turning included handle turning and I think this is an excellent means to learn some skillls and produce a useful item.
I have noticed that I have to adjust my grip and approach according to the tool but that is a millisecond decision.
Paul makes a relevant comment concerning arthritis and this is something no ready handled tool accommodates, in that case making is most probably better than buying.
People , like my careless self, with acquired hand injuries would be in much the same boat regarding handle size and shape.
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28th May 2017, 04:13 PM #23Senior Member
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Well for me handles are not so important as the tool that hangs off the end and like many I, discovered un-handled cost less. But seeing I make many of my tools it follows I will make the handles. As mentioned elsewhere I like my handles this way, not that way . This is ergonomics and OHS at work here. As I have fairly particular thoughts on what my handles should be, do and be capable of.
If you go into it there are some serious studies on the making of handles for various uses etc I ran across this man years ago.
found this so theres a fair bit about the science
http://ergonomics.uq.edu.au/eaol/handle.pdf
https://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/ergo...ooldesign.html
https://mpatkin.org/ergonomics/handle_checklist.htm
Designing the Perfect Grip - Of Handles and Homepages - DESIGNING *for humans[/QUOTE]
Thanks Hughie,
I came across some of these during my earlier research. Interesting that turners are so wedded to wooden handled turning tools, despite rsi type problems. The CCOHS's position that tubular hard shiny surfaces are about as bad as you can get for handles! Though put into perspective, for the casual turner it probably doesn't matter (unless they already have injured or arthritic joints).
Thanks for all the feedback folks, my quest to create the perfect handle continues .......
Cheers
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28th May 2017, 07:04 PM #24GOLD MEMBER
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Phily, you have answered your own question. There is no perfect handle. The closest to perfect is the one you make yourself for your own needs and to suit your personal physical requirements. Like I posted, I like mine with a knob on the end so when my fingers get there I know I am at the handles end and I won't slip off. I really hate metal handles even up here with our mild winters. I am so pedantic about handles and ergonomics I made new operating handles for all my lathe banjo's to get a better angle for my wrist.
Rgds,
Crocy
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28th May 2017, 11:28 PM #25
I find the comments interestng. I make my own handles, I am not concerned about the aesthetics or overly concerned about the size or length. Some of my tools have handles 125mm long, some are about 400mm long. The species is not of great concern, neither do they all match, they are all functional. Some get rings burned onto them some don't. My only concern is that they all have fairly straight grain, not because of the "forces" involved in turning, but because of potential damage when they get dropped. The "forces" during turning should be minimal, if not, get some help to improve your tehnique. The bottom line is that, unlike metal machining where angles etc. are important, wood turning is a vastly different kettle of fish. As Frank Pain, a well known old English turner said, "Turn wood as it likes to be turned". Let the tools do the work, the tools do not need to be forced.
Make the handles any way you want, there are no "rules" to break, make them the way it suits you and enjoy the turning.
JimSometimes in the daily challenges that life gives us, we miss what is really important...
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29th May 2017, 08:27 AM #26GOLD MEMBER
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Making tool handles is common practice in the Pacific Northwest carving community, the native carvers in particular.
The usual is make crooked knife blades from files, etc, repurpose blades from farrier's hoof knives or buy ready made blades from
a few outstanding PacNW bladesmiths. The handles are entirely up to the carver.
There is a collection of about a dozen to study in the University of British Columbia Museum of Anthropology.
Google UBC/MOA and you will find them in the online collection, too.
The best description is probably the "Kestrel Constant," named for a blade making shop.
The notion is that you hold the tool handle in a fist grip, palm up.
The tips of your second and third fingers should just touch the fat ball part of your thumb.
For me, that is 7/8". 3/4" is far too skinny. 1" is OK, 1.25" is far too big. No kidding, it's that precise.
I found that size applies to both my elbow adze and my D adze (both blades from Kestrel Tool.)
I'd be really interested to learn if a parallel exists with turning tools.
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29th May 2017, 09:24 AM #27
I have made a few handles for my chisels........sometimes to replace a broken one on my Dad's old set.
The most joy I got was a job I did for my wife. She does lots of craft type activities and purchased an Awl from Spotlight. The awl was made for sewing and had a tiny plastic handle which hurt my wife's palms as she had to pierce thick leather and paper for her bookmaking (..no she makes hand crafted books...not taking bets).
I removed the steel from the handle and made a more comfortable rounded handle that doesn't hurt......
Awl.jpg
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29th May 2017, 11:32 AM #28
And, you can also modify any that come already handled. eg. the five handles marked with an arrow in this photo were returned to suit me. Why waste good wood if you can reuse it.
This comes out of having limited success in getting sellers to remove the handle and just sending the tool steel if they don't offer a tool only option. It is extra work for the sellers to remove a handle and I guess they are also concerned about the risk of damaging the tool in the process. I accepted that I would be paying for tool and handle, but the handle can add to the cost of shipping beyond what it is worth, especially if it is coming from overseas.
So, if you can't avoid getting the mandatory handle, one option is to modify it if it doesn't suit you as supplied.
Stay sharp and stay safe!
Neil
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29th May 2017, 05:15 PM #29Senior Member
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Hi Crocy, I heartedly agree that there will never be a perfect handle, there are too many individual preferences and turning styles to ever enable such a design. However I still believe that there are some design fundamentals that most handles don't conform to and that their incorporation could improve quality and comfort. I'm not suggesting that I have all this figured out yet, far from it, in fact I'm still fact finding. One example of things to be considered is that the OH&S folk seem united in the view that a hard shiny tubular shaped handle is not a well designed handle. This would suggest that a wooden handle, no matter how shaped, is still far from being close to perfect. Does an axe shaped end really improve the ergonomics? Does wrapping the handle with tennis grip tape help reduce RSI injury risks? Is there an ideal balance ratio at the tool fulcrum? And, even if I find all these things out, will the net effort of incorporating all these aspects into a handle design provide a tangible return on the effort to make the handle? I have no idea but evidently I do have too much time on my hands, so what the heck, I might as well keep asking questions. And who knows, it may be worth the effort!
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29th May 2017, 05:31 PM #30Senior Member
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I'm not sure about parallels but finicky on size most definitely. I must have looked at a hundred or more wood turning handles and have only found one consistent feature - they are all different. Some folk have worked out that their hand best fits a 40mm diameter that tapers to 25mm. Others have worked out that a 32mm rod works best etc etc etc. And there are plenty of folk that are adamant that their design, to the mm, works best for them. How this is evaluated I have no idea. I have spoken to professional turners who have determined that a particular shape aids with their production turning eg timed at 18 minutes to turn an ash blank to a finished, waxed 6inch bowl. But how does a hobbyist determine that a 32mm diameter works better than a 34mm diameter? Now that is a question I would love to hear an answer to!
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