Thread: Carbide insert tools

I am wanting to buy a Ci 1 Easy Rougher Frank & Earnest.
I would be interested to know more about the insert that you are using, can you post pic.


Cheers Stef.

F & E,

I've got all 3 of the EasyWood tools - the Ci1, 2 and 0.

I originally bought the Ci1 to hollow my end-grain boxes, but others have shown me a better way. And now tools are much sharper, thanks to sharpening lessons from and Ken W. Now, hollowing with a long-and-strong spindle gouge, then with Sorby multi-tip, is a much better option.

So I don't use the Ci1 as much as I thought I might mave. One area (for me at least) where it does excel is getting platters / bowls into round (and balance) without all that "bounce". It also does a great job in scraping the inside bases of flat boxes.

Same goes for the Ci2.

But I do use the Ci0 a lot. It's fantastic for the final hollowing of boxes with shape. And the inserts seem to last a long, long time, as you are only using a very small part of the cutting edge. And you can be as aggressive or delicate as you like - I've honestly not had one catch with it. Or none that I can remember anyway.

Out of the 3, the Ci0 is my favourite.

Hadn't thought about it much but all I use it for is roughing down big, hard, unbalanced stuff. I find they are too hard on the work piece, ripping chunks out everywhere and causing whatever drive I'm using to chew out and slip. Then there's the hammering on the toolrest - might as well turn it on a metal-lathe. All-in-all I much prefer to slice the waste off - much less stress on me, the workpiece and the lathe
Just my 2 bob's worth - now back to my corner

Vern, I don't think the troops want you to got "back in your corner". I and others will continue to learn much from you. (And I want to see that egg collection, one day).

Not sure exactly what you were saying about the Ci1. Do you use it to get stuff into balance, then start cutting with the gouge? That's what I do anyway.

Ok, let's try to tackle this issue methodically.

1) the insert. The one I use (just because it is what I could find, there are possibly better ones available, I do not know) is # 182443 made in Germany and imported by Leuco in Sydney. 14.3mm square with a small rounding on the left side of the edges and 2.5 mm thick. The hole (6.3mm?) should be compatible with the Ci1-2 but the bevel could possibly be obstructed by the bar because of the different size.

2) the technique. By presenting the cutting edge exactly on the centre line of the spindle with the tool pointing down slightly (only 1-2 degrees) this insert can be pushed hard enough to make short work of roughing any hardwood, or delicately enough to finish off the tool a 1.5 mm thin finial without tailstock support. Having one tool with the insert mounted at 90 degrees and one at 45 degrees allows sweeping curves in any direction. The 4-8mm wide streamers I have been getting out of green Western Myall were very gratifying.

3) the limitations. These tools can not do well small coves and round tight corners at the bottom of hollowed forms. For that you need a round blade, as Jeff found out. A spindle gouge used in this situation is actually presented almost orthogonally to the wood, which means that it is used as a scraper. That's the reason why I am still chasing a round insert, must try the Vermec 10mm TCT cutter.

In summary: If I can achieve these results with my very limited skills, the tool must be good. But you have only my word for it. Since the last get together at my place there does not seem to have been any other organised in Adelaide. Why don't we organise another one? , you can come and make sure by yourself!

Originally Posted by TTIT

Hadn't thought about it much but all I use it for is roughing down big, hard, unbalanced stuff. I find they are too hard on the work piece, ripping chunks out everywhere and causing whatever drive I'm using to chew out and slip. Then there's the hammering on the toolrest - might as well turn it on a metal-lathe. All-in-all I much prefer to slice the waste off - much less stress on me, the workpiece and the lathe
Just my 2 bob's worth - now back to my corner

Yes, had the same experience. The problem is the speed. The minimum for getting good results from the insert is 900 rpm, the faster the better. If your piece is too unbalanced to withstand 900, forget it, a gouge works better because it presents a smaller cutting edge. You are right about using a metal lathe approach for roughing: use the left side of the square insert pushing from right to left, it is much easier on the wood.

Originally Posted by jefferson

...............
Not sure exactly what you were saying about the Ci1. Do you use it to get stuff into balance, then start cutting with the gouge? That's what I do anyway.

Originally Posted by Frank&Earnest

Yes, had the same experience. The problem is the speed. The minimum for getting good results from the insert is 900 rpm, the faster the better. If your piece is too unbalanced to withstand 900, forget it, a gouge works better because it presents a smaller cutting edge. You are right about using a metal lathe approach for roughing: use the left side of the square insert pushing from right to left, it is much easier on the wood.

You're right about the speed F&E - but once the piece is balanced enough to push it to 900rpm or so I switch to the gouge anyway. I just hate the old 'ka-thunk, ka-thunk' of the gouge bouncing on really bumpy unbalanced bits of dry hardwoods like Dead-Finish and such at slow speeds - that is why I use the Rougher to hack off the bumps a bit.

I had often thought the problems Vern has encountered would be there. I find if the tip is round then the effects are not so pronounced. But as Vern has said I also prefer slicing. But this is only MHO.

I was using the Carbide Insert Tool that Frank kindly made for me to rough down green blanks until the tips that I had (courtesy of Cliff) all became too blunt to use.

I did find the tool quite good for that. You can rough down a large green lump of wood in very short order, using just the carbide tool on the outside but swapping over to a bowl gouge to complete the final cuts on the inside. The way I use it, the carbide tool leaves a series of steps inside the bowl that need to be removed with a bowl gouge.

I did sharpen the tips for a while with a diamond bit in my rotary tool but finally gave up on that.

I tend to use the tool more like a gouge than a scraper, ie with tool raised and the bevel rubbing.

I plan to buy some replacement tips when I get around to it.

There was a very good source for them from the US on eBay for a while (seller garyet3 ) but he is not currently active.

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Neil,

You'd be on my buddy / greenie list if I knew how. All I know is that you teach and turn better than I.

(If I add too many TTU, I lose the thread! ).

But I cannot understand how you can say that you gain bevel support using carbide tipped inserts. Or am I losing it?

The bevel on the inserts is maybe 1-1.5mm, 2mm max.

What am I missing?

I am trying to learn some (or all) of it. But geez, every turner tells me something different. Cut above, at or below centre. Use this tool or that......

I'm doing my best and you guys are confusing the absolute cr*p out of me at almost every "turn".

Or is this little adventure about me listening to all, and finding my "own" way?

Please talk to me (and help). A bad week and more here with the bronchitis - and I am doing a demo with the Esc. chuck soon (with and WWW thankfully in the wings) and have absolutely no idea...

You people certainly do inspire me.

But please do not assume too much about a novice like me. Think of some poor bugger with a stuffed head, great equipment, office hands and not much (no) idea. But someone prepared to listen and learn.

Jeff, what Neil is alluding to is that the front of the bar is cut (approximately in this case ) at the same angle as the cutter, therefore it extends the 2-3mm bevel to around 15mm.

Neil, you are local. Why don't you drop in, I quickly adjust your tool (if necessary) to take the type of insert I am using and we photograph each other's techniques for the forum to comment on?

Here is another of the Myall Miniatures I have had fun turning with these tools.

As I was saying before, the inside of the "flagon" (neck 1.5 mm, wall and bottom 3-4 mm thick) was scraped with the wing of a 1/4" gouge tilted to the side.

Originally Posted by jefferson

Neil,



Or is this little adventure about me listening to all, and finding my "own" way?

.

Yep.

Originally Posted by

Yep.

As with anything in life.

Originally Posted by jefferson

I cannot understand how you can say that you gain bevel support using carbide tipped inserts. Or am I losing it?

The bevel on the inserts is maybe 1-1.5mm, 2mm max.

What am I missing?

Easy there Jeff, you don't have to make sense of everything that is thrown around this forum. Remember that there is a lot of pissing on posts (territory marking) that goes on here... Ignore a lot of it and just concentrate on what is already/starting to work for you and in time it will all come together.

Now, on rubbing the bevel with the insert tool. The combined insert and bar form quite a reasonable area for rubbing, at least on the one that Frank made for me. [OK, Frank posted a pic of his/mine while I was composing this post, see that for the geometry]. The bar doesn't have to be HSS to perform the rubbing function. By using the heel of the bar as a fulcrum you can adjust the depth of cut and get better control on the banana skin thick shavings that come off green wood.

It's not a technique I would recommend until you are comfortable with bowl gouges, as it is the equivalent of using the full wing length of a swept back grind on a plunging cut! There is a lot of force involved and you really have to lean on the handle so it doesn't flip out of your hand and..... So, I keep the tool rest close to the work to increase my leverage on the handle.

As the tool was designed to be used in scraping mode, perhaps stick with that if that is what you are comfortable with for now, that way it won't get away on you and do a damage to something you value.

The nearest traditional tool I can think of that work the same way is the bedan. Perhaps master that first before using the carbide insert tool this way.

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