Thread: The best fingernail profile bowl gouge?

Thanks again for all the replies; I've decided to go for the Henry Taylor "Kryo".

I like Robert Sorby's stuff and they were my default choice but enough forum members have convinced me to try something else.

I did briefly consider the P&Ns but only for patriotic reasons as I'm not sold on the quality of their steels; I use P&N drills and taps/dies at work and I don't rate them very highly. When I need precision or if the material I'm working is a more tougher/harder steel then I reach for my Dormer/Goliath tools.

I'm a big fan of the Thompson gouges. I like the V but I would use a U if I had it. There really isn't that much difference. It's more a matter of how you grind the tool and how you use the tool that makes you prefer one over the other.
Kryo and Particle metal tools have a lot of myth floating around. They should not be any harder to sharpen than regular tools. It all depends on the final hardness that the manufacturer leaves in the tool. You harden a tool so it's too hard and then draw it back to the hardness needed for that particular application. Files are left very hard, hand sharpened carving tools are left softer.
Kryogenics is just a method of improving the overall toughness of the tool by converting more of the Austenite to Martensite. These are the crystals that make a tool hard. It's my understanding that properly heat treated tool will not benefit from Kryogenics, however this takes some very precise control and more time. Using the Kryogenic method simply saves time and keeps the tool quality high.
Particle metal has an advantage of being able to mix in higher percentages of metals that make a tool tough or increased wear resistance. Melted steel only takes so much. The particle metal tools therefore can hold an edge longer because they have a higher percentage of metals like Vanadium.
Doug Thompson uses the best metal he can find combined with proper heat treating and Kryogenics. Then he sends the tool with a decent grind ready to go. They are not truely as sharp as I like them right off the shelf but would get a beginner going pretty well. He uses a Oneway Wolverine jig to sharpen them so it would be very easy to duplicate his sharpening if you own one of those jigs.
There might be some better tools on the market but as far as I know not anywhere near the price. Of course I live in the same country as Doug so prices might be better here.

Originally Posted by John Lucas

There might be some better tools on the market but as far as I know not anywhere near the price. Of course I live in the same country as Doug so prices might be better here.

Interesting post, John.

Agreed, DT tools are excellent value in Nth America, but with the A$ making ground on the US$ recently they are also becoming very competitive here in Oz, especially when a few of us do a group buy to reduce the shipping cost as Ern did for us last year.

I have three of Doug's gouges, but would be interested in some others if anyone else on this side of the pond wanted to go for another group buy...

.....

Doug's tools are good for our woods IMO. The extra vanadium improves abrasion resistance.

Like John I've not found them more difficult to sharpen (on a dry grinder) than common HSS (M2?). Haven't tried to hand or power hone any however. I have 3 of them; 2 have milling marks in the flute that are more than I'd like but the price was good.

A while ago I did some research on the advantages of cryo (not Kryo, that's HT's brand) treatment and it was ambiguous. IIRC Doug reckons that when you do it in the treatment process is important.

And John, AFAIK it's not particle metal but powder metal - but you're right, it's about what it does to the alloy.

Jeff, I was taught to use curved rests and small gouges to get the best results with bowls and I stick to that. The small P&Ns have U flutes and I use these often despite the milling marks; I had fingernail grinds on them but for interest have gone to a longer wing - that's more versatile in terms of tool presentation and effects.

Neil, I'd love to play with a DT skew but can't justify that whim ATM. The VL175 arrives tomorrow or Monday but the parcels will have to sit for a while. Flat pack stand, no probs; 218kg lathe to go on top, time to call for help!

Originally Posted by Chief Tiff

Thanks again for all the replies; I've decided to go for the Henry Taylor "Kryo".

I did briefly consider the P&Ns but only for patriotic reasons as I'm not sold on the quality of their steels; I use P&N drills and taps/dies at work and I don't rate them very highly. When I need precision or if the material I'm working is a more tougher/harder steel then I reach for my Dormer/Goliath tools.

Chief, I am surprised to hear you discount the P&N tools, as i find for the average work their drills are the best for edge holding and value, and i use a P&N 10mm beading and parting tool, and it holds an edge equally as well as Sorby or HT,
but thats only my experience,
Crocy.

Dunno where their drill alloys are made but as posted, their HSS for turning tools comes from o/s.

Neil I've followed the various articles and posts on PM steels not taking as keen an edge and I haven't been able to prove it. I have a lot of PM tools, HSS tools and some High Carbon tools. I can get any of them sharp enough to shave hair off my arm. An I'm not talking about sort of getting a few hear and there. I'm talking about a clean swath 1" wide. It is my conclusion that for all practical purposes the PM tools will get just as sharp as any other. At least for our uses.
I believe this is because the carbide grains in the new tools are smaller and can therefore reach a finer edge before fracturing. I know that older carbide tools will not get that sharp. I've tried and could not sharpen them. The new Hunter tools are a good example. They come very sharp straight from the factory.
As far as edge holding I really could not tell much difference in my bowl gouges. At least not at first. When I got my skew there was a noticeable difference. I turned a lot of spindles and swapped back and forth between the PM and HSS skew. After just a few minutes the HSS tool would have to be touched up. The PM skew just kept on cutting. I found the same to be true when turning aluminum with the spindle gouges. I have both PM and HSS in a 3/8" spindle gouge. I had to sharpen the HSS tool several times to finish a project. The PM would do the whole thing with one or maybe 2 sharpenings at most. That pretty much proved it for me.

My experience with the DT bowl gouge is that it would fairly quickly lose the fresh edge off the dry grinder (smaller burr not lasting as long?) but then keep cutting longer than HSS; it felt a bit dull and felt like it took more effort than a fresh edge but it would just keep going. For the final cuts I'd touch it up or pick up a small gouge with a fresh edge.

I agree, but I touch up the edge of all my tools before the last few cuts. It's just a good practice.

Originally Posted by John Lucas

Neil I've followed the various articles and posts on PM steels not taking as keen an edge and I haven't been able to prove it. I have a lot of PM tools, HSS tools and some High Carbon tools. I can get any of them sharp enough to shave hair off my arm.

John, perhaps you are going beyond the 80 grit grinder that I use on all of my gouges. I can only compare my various gouges to that level of 'sharpness'. I do hone my skews and scrapers, but not my gouges. If I did I might agree with you.

Interesting comment on the newer PM tools having finer carbide particles. That would certainly explain why they can achieve a sharper edge.

Originally Posted by rsser

My experience with the DT bowl gouge is that it would fairly quickly lose the fresh edge off the dry grinder (smaller burr not lasting as long?) but then keep cutting longer than HSS; it felt a bit dull and felt like it took more effort than a fresh edge but it would just keep going.

That has been my experience as well, Ern.

As I spend most of my time hogging down/out bowl blanks then the DTs are currently my preferred tool until I get to the final cuts then I can either resharpen the DT or switch to an M2 HSS tool.

.....