Thread: Finial Design

I use predominately 2 tools - 1/2"" skew and 6mm detail gouge with an "Ellsworth grind" (as per tormek recommended settings for thier gouge jig). As for a steady I use the index finger on my left hand behind/under the work piece directly behind the cutting zone of the gouge. My thumb sits on top of and very slightly to the left of the tool directly over the tool rest. The tool rest is as close as possible to the work piece; wherever possible about 3mm. Lathe speed is "flat out" ~3000 rpm on my lathe. Tool must be sharp, very sharp - I can shave the hair off the back of my hand with the shew!

Probably the most freqent cause of problems I experience is being too aggressive with the cut and / or lack of attention. One tip I was given (sorry I can't remember who to credit) was to lighten my grip on the handle. Finials need a very soft touch.

Hope these comments help, no guarantees other than they work for me most of the time. When they don't it is my fault, there is no one else to blame.

Bob

Originally Posted by dai sensei

Check out Cindy Drozda's site http://www.cindydrozda.com/ for what I consider beautiful

+1 Cindy Drozda. I found the 2/3 or 1/3 principle works for proportion. Or, try reading up on the Golden Ratio for aesthetics or how things look to the eye

Thanks Bob and Scott, for the extra tips. It all helps heaps.

rang me last night with some good advice, too. He suggested that for now, as a beginner, I should go back to a standard fingernail grind instead of the Ellesworth grind.
I ordered a second 3/8" spindle gouge last night and I'll keep the original grind so I can compare the two side-by-side and determine which is best for which operations.
He also recommended waxed string (flax) for a string steady if I want to make one, since it tends to self-lubricate.
I'm only thinking of a very small steady, mounted on the tailstock quill, to stabilise the tip and stop it whipping around if I try for an extra-long, thin spindle.


Bob, I didn't even know they made 6mm gouges. I've never tried a detail gouge. I'll eventually buy a couple, but for now it's the standard spindle gouges and, when it arrives, a 1" skew. The others will come over time.
I started using my hand as you describe to steady the workpiece yesterday, after checking out CD's technique. It feels pretty alien, but I'll persist until I get used to it.
I've been running the lathe at 3000 too. It can go up to 5000, and I briefly thought about it, but I was too slack to move the belt.


Scott, I came across references to the Golden Ratio yesterday following Bob's links to Cindy Drozda's stuff. I'm pretty familiar with it from box-making. I just need to put it into practice now.


While checking out her videos, I came across the ones describing making a Sputnik sea-urchin ornament.
Quite impressive-looking, so I ordered some urchin shells to give it a shot. Something else besides boxes to put my finials on, when I eventually make a couple that are worth using.

For anyone interested, I bought the shells from Simply Shells

Pretty cheap at $4 each, (+ $10 deliv), making them a nice, inexpensive project.

And here's a link to the first of Cindy's two-part series:
Making a Sputnik Sea Urchin Ornament with Turned Finials - Part 1


Thanks again for the tips, guys. Much appreciated.

This is today's attempt. Still a bit rugged, but getting better. I think the onion is better proportioned, although still a bit lumpy.
I ran out of stock this time, or it would have been a bit longer.

It's 2mm thick at the thinnest part of the taper, and 105mm tall not counting the tenon(s).

I'll have to try a piece of timber with straighter grain next time, too. This one has a distinct bend in it.

c. Getting better.JPG

I'll leave everyone alone now, and get on with some quiet practice for a few days.......

Well done

Bob

Originally Posted by Hermit

...waxed string (flax) for a string steady if I want to make one, since it tends to self-lubricate.....

Not for finials, it will just get in the way, unless your making them>150mm long

Originally Posted by dai sensei

Not for finials, it will just get in the way, unless your making them>150mm long

I definitely plan to make some about 150mm long in the future, after some a lot more practice. I'll only make one if I feel I need it.

I wasn't thinking of a full steady mounted to the lathe bed, but something like this mounted on the tailstock quill, just to stop the tip whipping around. This is Eddie Castelin's version:

Tailstock String Steady.JPG

Once you get into finials longer than 150 you get into the world of trembleurs (see http://www.woodturningonline.com/Tur...s.php?catid=63).

At an advanced class run by at our club the barmaid set a project of min 300mm long with hand cut M2 taper at the headstock end and 1 handmade string steady. He also made us use crappy tassy oak 30x30 stock from Bunnies. Let's just say it was an interesting , frustrating , but enjoyable session .

Originally Posted by dai sensei

Once you get into finials longer than 150 you get into the world of trembleurs (see http://www.woodturningonline.com/Tur...s.php?catid=63).

At an advanced class run by at our club the barmaid set a project of min 300mm long with hand cut M2 taper at the headstock end and 1 handmade string steady. He also made us use crappy tassy oak 30x30 stock from Bunnies. Let's just say it was an interesting , frustrating , but enjoyable session .

Thanks Neil, and believe me, I don't intend to try anything that long just yet. I'll go for about 120 or so on the next longer one. That's only 15mm longer than today's.

I saw the term 'trembleur' somewhere last night in my YouTube travels, but didn't follow it up.

Also saw some ripper goblets last week with 3mm stems a couple of feet long, similar to Rich Hutchinsons', turned with carbide tools. (YouTube again)
I wouldn't have thought it possible with carbide.
Unfortunately, I didn't keep a link.
They had a great pendulum effect, with the weight of the bowl on top, sort of hypnotic.

By the way, said the same as you - that I shouldn't need a string steady for my current-sized finials. I'm just thinking ahead.

Edit: Great link, by the way. Thanks.

Steve,

This link may be of interest as it's a finial chucky designed to hold a finial instead of using a string steady.

I have quite a few of Rubber Chucky's items but not this one. However if I was making a lot of finials I would make one using a sleeve over a revolving centre to hold the end of the finial. Seems easy enough to adapt one using some plastic sleeve to fit the end of the finial and slide over a revolving centre.

Peter.

Originally Posted by Sturdee

Steve,

This link may be of interest as it's a finial chucky designed to hold a finial instead of using a string steady.

I have quite a few of Rubber Chucky's items but not this one. However if I was making a lot of finials I would make one using a sleeve over a revolving centre to hold the end of the finial. Seems easy enough to adapt one using some plastic sleeve to fit the end of the finial and slide over a revolving centre.

Peter.

Great link Peter. You pointed me at the Rubber Chucky website once before, when building my vac chuck system, but I didn't see the 'Finial Chucky' at the time.

Pretty logical, so I'm kicking myself for not having thought of something similar. I was already planning to make a large cone centre to slide onto my live centre.

I'll either make another, to fit the live centre, or I'll make one with a wooden MT2 taper and a small internal bearing.
I'm leaning toward a lighter, internal bearing, MT2 version, so far. A really long, thin finial might have a chance of twisting and breaking if it has to accelerate the weight of my heavy live centre during startup, especially when powering up with the belt across the 'fast' pulleys. My 'fast' is from 2500 to 5000, and being a very lightweight lathe, it accelerates up to speed very quickly.

You know, this has really got me thinking. As you say, a piece of plastic tube pushed down firmly onto the tip of the finial is half the job done already - no marks on the finial. I have some very small bearings here already, with an ID of about 8mm, and eBay has a wide range of small, lightweight bearings that don't cost the Earth, as long as I buy a few extras for regular replacement as they die.

Alternatively, a chunk of UHMW plastic for the one to fit the live centre would possibly be the go.

Thank you again for putting me onto this Peter. It's just what the doctor ordered.
(And it'll keep my overactive mind busy for the night. I fell asleep on the couch at 9pm and just woke up at 1.30am, full of beans and ready to start another day.)


Edit: Oh, and I gave yesterday's finial a coat of Wapro black Raven Oil leather dye, to see how it would go, but was disappointed. Two problems. First, it resists soaking right into the open pores properly, leaving little minute specks of undyed timber everywhere, (couldn't get rid of those, no matter how hard I tried), and the second drawback is that it doesn't dry out in an acceptable time, if at all. A bit like inkjet printer ink, for anyone that's played with that stuff.
I went over it with a Sharpie, then a coat of Nugget and Bob's your uncle.

For my next ones, I've ordered some black aniline dye. Should get better results.

If you are going to use tailstock support, make sure it is holding vertically only, literally no axial pressure. If you do, as the finial gets very thin/small, it can buckle/bend.

Originally Posted by dai sensei

If you are going to use tailstock support, make sure it is holding vertically only, literally no axial pressure. If you do, as the finial gets very thin/small, it can buckle/bend.

Thanks Neil, I'll do that. Don't want to defeat the purpose of the steady.

The last one already has a bit of a bend, even without any pressure. I think in this case that's just the grain and a bad choice of timber, but I saw a video yesterday suggesting that keeping the tailstock up against the piece for too long in the early stages can contribute to that problem, and that it's better to remove it as soon as possible to let the timber take it's natural form before it's fully turned to shape.
Do you think this is a valid point? (Sorting the gems from the crap on YouTube is difficult sometimes.)

Another thing to think about with aesthetic design with finals is in nature if it's hanging down it thins away with the bottom one, with more mass when rising up.
Can't remember who I had this discussion with. Just putting it out there to think about! Think natural icicles and the mineral formations in caves.
Bit early for spelling sorry!