Thread: Hand turning vs Copy Lathe / CNC

Originally Posted by oreos40

I would like to see something that with the right equipment couldn't be done as well as by hand. My dad ran a turning business for 60 plus years. I still have one of his original lathes it can be seen in the flowing video.

The template is a piece of masonite that took about 10 minutes to make. the whole process from board to finished piece is less tan two and one half minutes. we can duplicate off an original turning directly and have turned things up to two feet in diameter and 16 feet long in one piece. we have done hollow vases three feet deep as well.

Hughie this isn't hollow but it could be this took less than three hours from block to completion. It is a one off demonstration of what a home built lathe is capable of.

I'll mainly leave it to hughie and the other experts to reply, except to say that it doesn't look like much fun compared to hand-turning. The off-the tool finish doesn't look as good, either.

What about cranky grain and end-grain tearout? Surely it would be much worse using a copy-lathe?

Originally Posted by Hermit

I'll mainly leave it to hughie and the other experts to reply, except to say that it doesn't look like much fun compared to hand-turning. The off-the tool finish doesn't look as good, either.

What about cranky grain and end-grain tearout? Surely it would be much worse using a copy-lathe?

I have had no trouble with wild grain. I have turned ebony, paduk, to pine and white oak. I sand these mostly because the burn lines bleed into the adjacent areas. I am not aware of anyone who turns out finish grade
'off the tool" I have other videos with other stuff I don't spend much time sanding. As for museum quality I made two sets of cross and crosier for Papal processionals here in the US. I would guess if it is good enough for the pope it would be good enough. Sometimes I consider them more of a shrine than a museum but I have several pieces in alter screens for large churches as we did many pieces for Constantinos Papadakis as well. look him up on the net

Originally Posted by chuck1

Also places with auto lathes won't pull a machine down for short runs as its not worth it to them which is good for us hand turners!

I think their idea of short run is pretty long still for a hand turner.

I think even for someone who is not ultimately going to "be a production turner" its still a good excersis to try and do some production things. Trying to reproduce reasonably identical things teaches you the economy of movement and the direct-gesture-to-form thing. And hones your eye so you can see details others can't. And if your body already knows what to do then faced with that segmented piece you have already invested 40 hours work on, or that one amazing blank you have been saving for a special occasion, you won't send it flying around the room in its many little segments again. You gotta do a hell of a lot of jogging and running every day to think you are going to win an Olympic medal.

Its also in the doing that you get your own style too.

A computer and printer can make a good copy of the Mona Lisa too.

Its the hand controling the tool that gives life to a piece of art.

Originally Posted by tea lady

I think their idea of short run is pretty long still for a hand turner.

I think even for someone who is not ultimately going to "be a production turner" its still a good excersis to try and do some production things. Trying to reproduce reasonably identical things teaches you the economy of movement and the direct-gesture-to-form thing. And hones your eye so you can see details others can't. And if your body already knows what to do then faced with that segmented piece you have already invested 40 hours work on, or that one amazing blank you have been saving for a special occasion, you won't send it flying around the room in its many little segments again. You gotta do a hell of a lot of jogging and running every day to think you are going to win an Olympic medal.

Its also in the doing that you get your own style too.

Good advice. I'm not too bad now at getting the shape that I want, but making two identical pieces is a different thing altogether. I need to get stuck into a bit of that. (Without a copy-lathe. )

Maybe some matching pairs of candlesticks in the near future.

And I'm well overdue for one of my segmented pieces to fly apart. I've been pretty lucky so far.

Originally Posted by oreos40

I would like to see something that with the right equipment couldn't be done as well as by hand. My dad ran a turning business for 60 plus years. I still have one of his original lathes it can be seen in the flowing video.

The template is a piece of masonite that took about 10 minutes to make. the whole process from board to finished piece is less tan two and one half minutes. we can duplicate off an original turning directly and have turned things up to two feet in diameter and 16 feet long in one piece. we have done hollow vases three feet deep as well.

Hugie this isn't hollow but it could be this took less than three hours from block to completion. It is a one off demonstration of what a home built lathe is capable of.

I dont doubt it especially with ArtCam software or similar and putting aside cost its tempting play with the idea.

Originally Posted by oreos40

I would like to see something that with the right equipment couldn't be done as well as by hand. My dad ran a turning business for 60 plus years. I still have one of his original lathes it can be seen in the flowing video.

The template is a piece of masonite that took about 10 minutes to make. the whole process from board to finished piece is less tan two and one half minutes. we can duplicate off an original turning directly and have turned things up to two feet in diameter and 16 feet long in one piece. we have done hollow vases three feet deep as well.

Wondering if you could make or buy such a device to attach to a big lathe?

I have a huge number of turnings to make and this would be a godsend.

Hand turned is the only way woodturning art copy lathes and cnc have and are killing it.
No respect for anyone that uses a copy lathe or cnc and calls it hand turned..

copy lathes have there limits on what size they can turn.

Originally Posted by Evanism

Wondering if you could make or buy such a device to attach to a big lathe?

I have a huge number of turnings to make and this would be a godsend.

the process will work on any sized lathe. the peice in the picture was not done on a CNC. it was done with the indecees on the lathe and coupling it with a router and a template. the template just makes it exactly repeatable. what is the size of the turnings you hope to do and what lathe do you have?

Originally Posted by nz_carver

Hand turned is the only way woodturning art copy lathes and cnc have and are killing it.
No respect for anyone that uses a copy lathe or cnc and calls it hand turned..

copy lathes have there limits on what size they can turn.

NZ I have no problem useing hand tools but for me my joy comes from the mechanical part of the equipment and figuring out how to do with less effort. I dont downplay the skill it takes to turn with hand tools. I still have to deal with proper cutting technique and sharpening tools. Your attitude is quite disrespectful of other skills. Your comment is uncalled for but not unusual for many skilled people who want so badly to be elite. You are obviously commenting about things you are not experienced with. By the way our "big lathe" which was set up for duplicating as I mentioned before was capable of 2' diameter and 16' long. we could hollow to four feet and do three foot deep by 7' in diameter before we needed to put the base of the lathe on blocks. Limitations? How big is yours?

Originally Posted by hughie

I dont doubt it especially with ArtCam software or similar and putting aside cost its tempting play with the idea.

the lathe that I built to do this cost me less than 600 us it is not cnc controlled.
home made lathe for large unique wood turnings - YouTube

My needs are varied.

I've a Cougar 350 variable speed I found second hand (it was utterly unused, still had the grease and plastic on it). I've used it plenty and I love it.

I'm capable of making things, but not fast. I make a template of the things I need to copy turn in 3mm MDF and mark a spindle with all the beads and coves (still something I'm trying to master - a skill to be learned and shown to me by a former member).

The objects are 15cm long coat stand mushrooms and bird stands. The bird stands are 3 piece affairs, with the top foot part being basic, the centre rod quite ornamental and the foot a large ornamental circle. The bird stands strike me as something that can be pseudo-automated.

The coat stand mushrooms are made 20 at a time and the bird stands 100 at a time. It takes me ages and at the end I'm well wishing for something else to do!

The video excited me as it was pretty close to the approach I use now. That video lathe looks like something conjured up from a metal lathe and a home made (but well done) machine. The dude in it pumped out 5 or 6 samples in 2 minutes. Envy!

Don't lament nz_carver, I'm not sure how others spruik for business, but I can't keep up. While I can't comment on how it was in "the past" Ive found there is a dedicated and growing consumer group wanting artisanal bespoke items in great quantity. As soon as people find out the things I can do, they are all over me like a bad rash.

It might be different here too (I'm not exceptional, or even "good") but I do market myself in a very particular manner that seems to get an unbelievable strike rate.

[QUOTE=Evanism;1794205]My needs are varied.



The video excited me as it was pretty close to the approach I use now. That video lathe looks like something conjured up from a metal lathe and a home made (but well done) machine. The dude in it pumped out 5 or 6 samples in 2 minutes. Envy!

Evanism, that is my lathe. lol thats a little more credit than deserved they do take about a minute apiece to turn. it is a converted craftsman metal lathe. the cross feed screw is removed and replaced with a lever. the compound feed is retained for easy diameter changes when the tool is removed for sharpening. This particular lathe was manufactured with timken tapered roller bearings so it has withstood constant speeds of over 2000 rpm daily for over 60 years. I overhauled it last year for the first time in its life. I have other videos that may show the template and other parts better search oreos40 on youtube.

Originally Posted by nz_carver

Hand turned is the only way woodturning art copy lathes and cnc have and are killing it.
No respect for anyone that uses a copy lathe or cnc and calls it hand turned..

copy lathes have there limits on what size they can turn.

"Bakerlite" & "Casein" were the begining of the end for large scale traditional production wood turning shops. Plastics and architectural design influences certainly had a major impact. To say copy lathes & CNC are killing hand turning is only partially correct. All manufacturing trades in traditional western manufacturing areas are in decline due to the influence of globalization of corporations, new technologies and the desire to find efficiencies & to reduce labour inputs & other costs. Wood turning just started earlier.

If it were not for "woodturning art" & the likes of Childs, Raffan, Ellsworth, Darlow, Jordan and many many more in the 1970 & 80's we most probably would have a much different wood turning scene now, perhaps much smaller maybe even almost an underground movement. They revived modern woodturning.

CNC requires a much different set of skills and is a logical progression from hand turning to copy lathes to semi or full automation. If you seek out ornamental turners through the centuries they were certainly not hand turners but were very well respected. Now turners like Bill Ooms in the US are performing magic on home built custom "CNC" or electronic versions of OT lathes. Still requires knowledge of hand turning techniques, materials & their quirks plus the skill & knowledge to build and have their machines do their bidding.

I have a lot of respect for the various skill sets and the individuals who posses them & make wonderful objects whether they be anything from rustic hand turned through to highly structured OT items. All require skill, vision, & interpretation to convey their thoughts & ideas into a physical object.

Have a look for Dale Chase (dec), Bill Ooms, Gorst duPlessis, Claude Lethieq, or NZ'er Ken Newton - amazing living treasures.