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  1. #1
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    Default Hand turning vs Copy Lathe / CNC

    A topic that has bugged me for a long time, not only with turning, but more relevant than most areas of woodworking - much of what we turn from solid blocks can be easily replicated, manifold, on a copy-lathe / CNC setup, for a tiny fraction of the cost of hand-turning. Of course, that's why traditional turning is dying.

    From a $ standpoint, is it even worth the effort of turning traditional bowls etc with a view to making any money, even towards costs?

    (Decent) timber cost alone, let alone turning time etc, seems to completely rule out any thoughts of breaking even, let alone making anything beyond cost.

    (That's partly why I've been turning my hand towards segmented stuff that can't easily be replicated by a machine. The thought that I can work my a#s$ off for hours to produce a form that a machine can do in 5 minutes almost sickens me.)

    I know it's a painful topic, but I'd be really interested to hear your thoughts on the subject.
    Last edited by Hermit; 24th July 2014 at 05:32 PM. Reason: Speelig - I'll get it right eventually
    ... Steve

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    There is an economy of scale involved. Its not worth the set up unless you are doing heaps of them I reckon. And it needs standard blanks to start with. So that's where hand made still has it. There is some wood and certain shapes that a copy lathe can't do. And because they use scrapers the finish off them is not that great. Its still the finish that sets hand made apart.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tea lady View Post
    There is an economy of scale involved. Its not worth the set up unless you are doing heaps of them I reckon. And it needs standard blanks to start with. So that's where hand made still has it. There is some wood and certain shapes that a copy lathe can't do. And because they use scrapers the finish off them is not that great. Its still the finish that sets hand made apart.
    Thank you Anna Marie, I'm glad to hear it put in those terms, from someone who knows what they're talking about.

    I thought, from hearsay, that a copy lathe or CNC setup could do pretty well as good a job as a hand-turner, if not better. I'm pleased that that isn't true.

    Personally, I enjoy it too much to really care if I sell things or not. Quite the opposite - when I sell things it's like a kid leaving home.

    So we're not officially extinct just yet, and I can continue leaning 'traditional' hand-turning.

    P.s. If I can eventually do half as well as you at turning, I'll be happy.
    ... Steve

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    Steve there is still things automation can't do! Thank the powers that be! We had a federation staircase and turned a sample the customer liked and the boss sent it off to the auto turning lathe place. But I ended up turning them as the machines were not up to the tasks due to the detail I put in it!
    the design is imprinted in my head for next time!
    As tea lady said the finish hand turned items have are far better than the auto/cnc.
    I have even heard of cnc balusters being retouched by hand due to the bad finish off the machine.
    Also places with auto lathes won't pull a machine down for short runs as its not worth it to them which is good for us hand turners!

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    Quote Originally Posted by chuck1 View Post
    Steve there is still things automation can't do! Thank the powers that be! We had a federation staircase and turned a sample the customer liked and the boss sent it off to the auto turning lathe place. But I ended up turning them as the machines were not up to the tasks due to the detail I put in it!
    the design is imprinted in my head for next time!
    As tea lady said the finish hand turned items have are far better than the auto/cnc.
    I have even heard of cnc balusters being retouched by hand due to the bad finish off the machine.
    Also places with auto lathes won't pull a machine down for short runs as its not worth it to them which is good for us hand turners!
    Thanks Charlie. Your's is one of the opinions I was looking forward to, as a production turner. It seems that my worries were ill-founded.

    I still like the fiddly segmented stuff and similar, though, but I guess that's just me. I like really 'getting my teeth' into a project.

    All the same, it gives me more incentive to turn 'normal' bowls etc. (Not good enough for spindle turning like your's yet.)


    This is a hot topic, so I'd welcome others' thoughts on the subject. When I see the prices of mass-produced stuff, it makes it hard to set a price on mine. (I'd much rather simply make stuff, without worrying about prices or sales. Looks like my shelves will fill up quickly .)
    ... Steve

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    Steve, you'd have to ask production turners directly on this one. I've seen a good one do 2 sets of redgum table legs in quick time, probably quicker than the programming required to set a CNC machine up. I'd also like to know how you do grinders as good as say Brendan Stemp's with scrapers.

    We all turn for different reasons. Sure, it's nice to be paid but the therapy is worth so much more.

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    There was a professional wood turning tradesman in Cairns that turned balusters in a copy machine. He was one one of the old trade turners. Even though the balusters were copy turned they needed to have some detail done by hand, because the cutter could not leave a clean intersection between the bead and a fillet. Even then he would turn three balusters in the time it took me to load one blank.

    I saw Glen Lucas, from Ireland, demonstrate how he turns salad bowls commercially. He turned the back of a bowl from a solid block about 350mm diameter and about 150mm thick, with four cuts with a bowl gouge. He makes a living by manually mass producing functional salad bowls, even in these days of copy and cnc machines.

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    Well the stuff I do could be done to some extent on a CNC Router set up with 4 axis. But the set up and the software is going to be expensive ie around 3k CNC Software For Artistic Applications - ArtCAM then you have to buy the CNC Router etc
    But the hand made pieces sell because they are hand made, one off unique pieces.The finish is very important with this sort of work you need to aim at a museum finish as the standard. I doubt the CNC set up would do this without some high quality cutters and extensive machining time well over 12 hours I would think.
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    Jeff, Jim and Hughie, thanks for reinforcing what the others have said.

    I assumed that a copy lathe or CNC setup could produce as nice a finish as hand-turning, but clearly not.

    Logic, I guess, when you think about it - a copy lathe can't tell when it's having trouble with end-grain tearout, for example, whereas a 'real' turner can see it and switch to shear scraping etc. for a cleaner finish.

    All of these replies were music to my ears. Thanks all.
    ... Steve

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    Quote Originally Posted by powderpost View Post
    There was a professional wood turning tradesman in Cairns that turned balusters in a copy machine. He was one one of the old trade turners. Even though the balusters were copy turned they needed to have some detail done by hand, because the cutter could not leave a clean intersection between the bead and a fillet. Even then he would turn three balusters in the time it took me to load one blank.

    I saw Glen Lucas, from Ireland, demonstrate how he turns salad bowls commercially. He turned the back of a bowl from a solid block about 350mm diameter and about 150mm thick, with four cuts with a bowl gouge. He makes a living by manually mass producing functional salad bowls, even in these days of copy and cnc machines.

    Jim
    I've seen Glenn demo at two venues & can vouch for PowderPost's comments. Glenn Lucas is a very efficient & highly competent turner (& demonstrator). Mike Mahoney is another commercial production bowl turner making a very good living. Tony Hansen here in Australia is another & is a very efficient & competent production turner. I could watch all three of them turn, poetry in motion, economy of effort, just superb to watch them in full flight.

    I think there is plenty of scope for production hand turners as there will always be niche markets. However finding, filling & satisfying that niche and marketing your product is the eternal problem for any wholesaler / retailer. Nowadays there is much increased competition from global competitors. Kelly Dunn in Hawaii produces translucent bowls in Norfolk Pine and specializes in local woods but will not touch Monkey Puzzle as imported bowls are available in the $ Stores in the same timber at a much lower quality & price point. No point even bothering with that wood as high end buyers perceive & associate the wood with "inferior" product.

    Like all commodities / markets you have to match the price points purchasers are willing to accept, with a product that fulfills both their perceived needs and your survival. In one of the pen postings there was a comment about purchasing retail vs wholesale. Many hobbyist turners are not able to compete due to their low volume purchases at near retail price structures. I was asked to turn custom balusters on a semi permanent basis for a tradesman. However we could not purchase stock blanks at a competitive price. Our buy price was not much shy of the copy lathe mass produced "finished" item and my clients end customers were generally not prepared to pay that sort of premium over the competitors product, even though they could see & appreciate the difference in finish quality. Price rules.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobyturns View Post
    I've seen Glenn demo at two venues & can vouch for PowderPost's comments. Glenn Lucas is a very efficient & highly competent turner (& demonstrator). Mike Mahoney is another commercial production bowl turner making a very good living. Tony Hansen here in Australia is another & is a very efficient & competent production turner. I could watch all three of them turn, poetry in motion, economy of effort, just superb to watch them in full flight.

    I think there is plenty of scope for production hand turners as there will always be niche markets. However finding, filling & satisfying that niche and marketing your product is the eternal problem for any wholesaler / retailer. Nowadays there is much increased competition from global competitors. Kelly Dunn in Hawaii produces translucent bowls in Norfolk Pine and specializes in local woods but will not touch Monkey Puzzle as imported bowls are available in the $ Stores in the same timber at a much lower quality & price point. No point even bothering with that wood as high end buyers perceive & associate the wood with "inferior" product.
    Gives me something to aim for.

    I don't plan to ever go into production turning, and will probably never be fast enough anyway, and also don't care too much about whether or not I sell anything, but hated the thought that a mere machine could do better than me.

    Apart from my segmented pieces, everything I've done so far could be easily made by machines. I'll have to pull my finger out and learn how to make nice, well-finished one-off stuff that doesn't look just like the machined, mass-produced turnings.

    I had to look up 'Monkey Puzzle', (Araucaria araucana/Chilean Pine), another timber I'd never heard of.
    ... Steve

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermit View Post
    Gives me something to aim for.

    I had to look up 'Monkey Puzzle', (Araucaria araucana/Chilean Pine), another timber I'd never heard of.

    Oops should have been Monkey pod .... Albizia saman or Raintree. Probably also a reason it is not well accepted by turners here even though it is a very good turning timber with a few allergy issues though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hughie View Post
    Well the stuff I do could be done to some extent on a CNC Router set up with 4 axis. But the set up and the software is going to be expensive ie around 3k CNC Software For Artistic Applications - ArtCAM then you have to buy the CNC Router etc
    But the hand made pieces sell because they are hand made, one off unique pieces.The finish is very important with this sort of work you need to aim at a museum finish as the standard. I doubt the CNC set up would do this without some high quality cutters and extensive machining time well over 12 hours I would think.
    Hughie,
    I was in the IT industry for 30 years but I reckon I will be long dead before a machine can do what you do. Replication is for 'stock standard stuff' so we just need to achieve more than that.
    cheers
    Mick

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    Hi all,
    I purchased my first lathe after using production run copy lathe business to produce the leg's and turned sections for the furniture I used to produce, I hadn't done any turning since I was an apprentice but thought if I couldn't do a better job of making matched set's of leg's than the copy business I would give it away, and I continued to do this in my shop until I was no longer able to work full time due to the body wearing out. As said in previous posts the finish and degree of detail is in no way comparable to hand turned work. I might be a little slower than a automated copy lathe but the end result is far superior and if you allow the time to deliver and pick-up from the copy shop I am much faster and have them when I need them not when he get's around to it. ( don't stop with the segmented stuff)
    Regards Rod.

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    I would like to see something that with the right equipment couldn't be done as well as by hand. My dad ran a turning business for 60 plus years. I still have one of his original lathes it can be seen in the flowing video.

    The template is a piece of masonite that took about 10 minutes to make. the whole process from board to finished piece is less tan two and one half minutes. we can duplicate off an original turning directly and have turned things up to two feet in diameter and 16 feet long in one piece. we have done hollow vases three feet deep as well.

    Hugie this isn't hollow but it could be this took less than three hours from block to completion. It is a one off demonstration of what a home built lathe is capable of.

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