Oland tools / Inserted tip tools - your experiences & opinions

scooter · #1 15th Apr 2007, 12:26 AM

Gday

I asked the following in Cliff's "fav tools" thread

Quote:

how would you objectively characterise them (Oland tools) compared to a spindle gouge and a bowl gouge? Eg. Ease of coarse/fine cutting, speed of stock removal, surface finish left, ease of sharpening, durability of sharp edge, can/would you rough out with them, etc etc.

Is the tool made using a tip long enough for the tip to sit on the toolrest, or is the body of the tool on the rest? Does this cause any instability?

Joe Greiner wrote:

Quote:

Tip long enough to sit on the toolrest would be too fragile, considering deep projection for such as hollowing. Some folk grind a flat on the bottom of the intermediate shaft, but I haven't yet found it necessary, even for the offset cutter. Very long handle and an auxiliary grip on the intermediate shaft helps.

Tiny amount of cutting helps to reduce catches, and a slicing cut makes for a reasonably good tool finish with not too much sanding needed.

Darrell Feltmate offered the following:

Quote:

These are really inserted tip tools that have been around for a long time but in the 1970's a turner named Knud Oland designed and used one with a HSS insert and used it to turn a lot of gorgeous work. Indcidentally, he set them up for market but hoped that people would make their own as the design was so simple. He was a friend of and major influence on David Ellsworth. Oland turned large work with nothing larger than a 1/4" tool and his widow Lissie still turns bowls over 30" with a 1/4" tool.
Generally I use an Oland with the tip ground back 45° and sharpened to a slight radius. This is the typical grind that Oland used. I also have a grind with the tip at 45° and the sides brought back leaving more of a point.
For spindle turning I tend to use a roughing gouge or a skew for roughing depending on the size of the spindle. For roughing face plate stuff an Oland is the tool. I like the 1/2" on bowls and such and also for things like large mushrooms for the garden. My largest so far is 29" high and about 14" diameter. Shavings fly.
I find I get as good a surface with either tool. Some would say equally as bad but I generally get to start sanding at 120 or 180 in decent wood. Some woods make this unlikely. Love that spalted stuff.
I should mention that I own good bowl gouges in 1/4", 3/8" and 5/8" sizes as well as a 1/2" super flute. I use Oland's. They are great for roughing or a fine surface cut. Special grinds are simple and just mean popping in a new insert, putting on the grind, and when done, replacing the original insert to be good to go. The 5/8" shaft on a 1/4" tool means no problem in those weird situations where you want to reach over the rest 5" or 6". The edge is as good as any other M2 HSS steel tool I have tried. Either free hand or jig they sharpen as easily as any other tool I have tried. A friend of mine uses them on spindles and loves them there but live with a set of skews on spindles so I really have little opinion.

Anyone else care to have some input?

Cheers..................Sean

Skew ChiDAMN!! · #2 15th Apr 2007, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scooter

Anyone else care to have some input?

I'll bite.

I use mine primarily for hogging out the bowls of my goblets. I find it faster than a bowl gouge, because it's such tight quarters that a bowl gouge is awkward unless it's really, really small. I prefer my bullnosed scraper for finishing the inside though. Just a personal quirk.

If I was told to make a choice between one of the two bowl gouges in my "must have" kit, then I'd toss 'em both and take one of my Oland-styles instead. (I've a 3/4" shaft that takes 7mm bits and a 15mm shaft that takes 5mm bits) I don't normally carry 'em in my travelling kit though, as they're one of those items that I've noticed other people like to take for test drives and seem to forget to put back in my carry-box.

Best left safe at home, I think.

As with Joe, I don't have a flat on the bottom of mine and don't particularly want one. With the straight configuration, the cutting edge is close to the middle of the tool anyway, so is fairly well supported on the toolrest and not having the flat means I can roll the tool to whatever cutting angle I want without hassle. I've found that curved shafts really need the auxiliary grip for leverage, unless it's a swans-neck type curve. ie. the cutting tip is still inline with the centre of the shaft.

The best of it all is, as Darrell said, if you want a custom tip you can simply make your own from a cheap scrap of HSS steel and swap over. I tend to sharpen both ends of my bit to two different profiles, one round and one square. I've knocked a wooden plug right into the bottom of the bore so that when I insert the HSS bit the end I'm not using stays sharp and isn't chipped blunted by hitting metal. Handy.

One minor detail... if you make your own shaft, after drilling the hole for the bit it's a good idea to grind the end to a domed or conical profile, smoothing it as much as possible to give you more clearance to the work piece; if you leave it square ended (like a pipe) it can catch and leave marks.

Darrell Feltmate · #3 15th Apr 2007, 01:23 AM

Adding to Skew ChiDamn's note, I find an Oland great for a demo because I can just take along a hand full of tips and as one becomes dull, a new one goes in and away you go. Not even a pause to sharpen and I do not have to contend with someone else's sharpening set up.

joe greiner · #4 15th Apr 2007, 01:39 AM

The wooden plugs will be added this arvo. Thanks, Skew. I agree about being able to roll the tool; lets you work below an artificial "equator" without moving the toolrest.

One thing I learned the hard way: On another thread, someone suggested threading for a grub screw all the way through the intermediate shaft, so as to enable clamping from either side. Likely advisable anyway for non-bottoming tap. Best to do this before boring for the cutter, as otherwise there seems to be enough flexibilty to confuse the tap. Broken taps do make nice extra cutters, though.

Joe

Skew ChiDAMN!! · #5 15th Apr 2007, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joe greiner

One thing I learned the hard way: On another thread, someone suggested threading for a grub screw all the way through the intermediate shaft, so as to enable clamping from either side.

Yep. With the added bonus that if some ham-fisted oaf over-enthusiastically tightens the grub and strips the thread, you can simply slip a grub in the other hole and keep right on working. It can be a right PITA if you have to stop for an hour while you locate your taps and an oversized grub screw, etc., etc. Not that I'm inferring I know this from personal experience, mind!

Oh... just thought I'd mention that I've also found it best if the grubscrew is on the top of the shaft. On the bottom it can, if a tad long, catch on the toolrest and if to one side or t'other I've found the tip tends to move up/down slightly. Just my experiences, mind, perhaps better made tools wouldn't have these problems.

hughie · #6 15th Apr 2007, 08:22 AM

Sean,

I have several Oland type tools all homemade. They broken down into two types

[1] Heavier type used for bulk removal, mainly in side bowls and vases. Can either HSS or Tungsten Carbide tipped

[2] Smaller and more delicate size of tips for specific detailed work. Such as cleaning out corners or finishing beads and tight radii. Generally this type are only HSS due to the need grind specific shapes and angles.

Cliff Rogers · #7 15th Apr 2007, 10:25 AM

OK, I know what an Oland is now.

The Vermec cutter head is what I use for hollowing & works along the same lines.
It is the 2nd last pic on this page.

Darrell Feltmate · #8 15th Apr 2007, 10:30 AM

Nice tool Cliff. One of these days I have to make one of those. The Oland is what I use as a general cutting tool, the same as most use a bowl gouge. A variation is the tool one would use as a scraper for the inside of hollow forms going facegrain. I like a hook tool for end grain.

OGYT · #9 15th Apr 2007, 11:38 AM

I think I posted this before, somewhere. I have several Oland tools (9 or 10) that I made after absorbing Darrell's Website. One of my Olands is over 4 feet long, with an 18"L x 3/4"dia shaft to hold a 1/4" cutter, and the shaft is reversible... the other end holds a 1/8" cutter. This tool is used to reach way over the toolrest for deep hollowing tall vases.
Incidentally, I ordered some more cutters yesterday that are HSS with 5%Carbide, so they should be a little harder to dull than regular HSS... not much more expense, either.
I use 1/8", 3/16", 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2" Ground Square Cutters, shaped to my liking.
You can really make the shavings fly with these, and you can make some pretty smooth cuts also, if you take a little care about tool presentation.
Like Skew, I use a small bullnose scraper to smooth the inside of coffee scoops and small boxes, because it gives my shaky hands a little wider swath.

Gil Jones · #10 15th Apr 2007, 02:36 PM

Al, did you maybe order HSS w/5% Cobalt?
Guess I have been using Oland type tools for a couple years before discovering it as such. Drilling a hole in the end if a steel bar to accept a HSS metal working bit at various angles seemed to be logical, and worked very well. Then I bought the Don Pencil Scorpion hollowing rig last year, and it uses the same principal, and adds another bit mounting method and shape too.
Cheers,

scooter · #11 15th Apr 2007, 02:46 PM

Thanks for the info everyone, keep it coming

Pics or links to pics already posted would increase the value of this thread to others

I'm thinking closeups showing tip grinds, tip holding methods & variations, etc

Cheers.................Sean

Cliff Rogers · #12 15th Apr 2007, 03:34 PM

Here is the Vermec tool out of the set that I use the most.
The cutter is round on one end & square on the other.
The tool is used with the flat on the toolrest which sets the top of the cutter at the height of the toolrest.

Skew ChiDAMN!! · #13 15th Apr 2007, 06:09 PM

Ah well, if we're going to show pix of our monstrosities...

The beast that got me hooked on Oland styles... complete with articulated head and extending handle. Never used either feature.

Note the flat on the top? Was s'posed to go on the bottom, but I decided I didn't like it there...

A closeup of the tip of the above beasty, and of one of my "box section" Oland-style tools that I use primarily for hogging out: The box section tools are a lot easier to make, and have a solid rectangular rod well'n'truly glued down the middle for rigidity. They aren't as pleasurable to use though, trying to roll one over to change the angle of the cut can be awkward. I guess that's why we don't have square wheels, eh?

The shafts of the above "box section" tool & a smaller diameter one I use on my goblets. All of my Oland styles have shafts of around 500-600mm in length (don't forget a largish chunk of that is in the handle!) and all are .9-1m in length when handled. Even my "delicate ones." These babes can remove enough material in one bite that these lengths are needed. Plus it gives you better fine tool control at the tip.

Hmmm... a closeup of the tips of the last two. You can see that I haven't domed the end of the shaft on the small round one yet. That will happen... eventually. Round tuits and all that.

To give you a better idea of the profile I like for the rounded tips. All of these tips are sharpened on the other end with a square profile and a slightly steeper angle... more like 40-45° But obviously I primarily use the rounded profiles (and was too lazy to swap 'em over for the pix.

)

hughie · #14 16th Apr 2007, 08:42 PM

Here a few pics of Oland type or tools that were inspired by the Oland design. HSS for the most of them, the articulated head [ last pic ] one has not been a raving success mainly because of the over hang. It needs a goose neck to prevent torque build up.

The first two are the most used ones, especially the 45' tool as its real handy for smaller opening enclosed type vessels.

The last one is secured to the tool bar by a m6 screw. The tool bit is egg shaped allowing me to bulk remove [pointed end ] and then smooth out the surface with the rounder end.

Cliff Rogers · #15 29th Dec 2008, 07:37 PM

Pictures added here.