Thread: could someone please explain!!!

Originally Posted by smiife

Anyone have any thoughts?
Any comments ?

Before posting I thought long and hard about what and how to say what I believe is a major cause for the decline in postings and that is the more and more emerging nasty attitude.

I suppose I was foolish in telling my personal experience thinking it would help Smiife to understand my absence and I did not expect, nor appreciate, such immediate reaction from Big Shed.

Maybe the heavy handed moderation practices also have a bearing on this subject, something that others might like to consider but I'm chastised enough today.

Peter.

Originally Posted by Sturdee

.....

I suppose I was foolish in telling my personal experience thinking it would help Smiife to understand my absence and I did not expect, nor appreciate, such immediate reaction from Big Shed.

Maybe the heavy handed moderation practices also have a bearing on this subject, something that others might like to consider but I'm chastised enough today.

Peter.

Normally as part of the moderators I would not be posting a reply but I think will benefit other members that are in a similar situation on receiving PM's of a nature that are less then civil.

If you still have these PM's that have caused distress I am requesting that you report these by pressing the little triangle on the bottom of the PM. This will send a report to the Admin and Moderators.

We will then be able to evaluate these PM as outside observers and determine the action accordingly.

On another note and as one of the members of the forum I hope that the PM's received will not deter you from continuing to be part of the forum.

The Penturning Forum has suffered a similar but worse exodus. Quite a few years ago it was a lively and friendly forum, but over time members just dropped off for whatever reason and it has dwindled to just a handful of sporadic posters.
I have heard Facebook was to blame by a few people, I am not sure on this , I don't have a Facebook account so I don't know what the attraction is.
I did see a bit of animosity between a couple of members and they stopped posting, maybe they went to Facebook and others followed . Who Knows ?

The lack of activity has a negative affect on attracting and retaining new members, so it will just continue to dwindle.

I don't know if it's relevant (and off topic a bit?) but we are seeing a similar trend in our club's activities. It appears that 80-90% of show and tell items are provided by 10-15% of members and critique session and workshop session numbers are down. membership has in fact risen by a few percent so that's no the issue and it's no colder in Melbourne this year than any other (well, maybe a bit!) and looking back at our records we haven't seen this drop off in previous years.

As for AWTEX, I don't believe that displaying items at forums such as this and certainly not at club S&T was ever the intent of the rule change. Maybe one of the Committee could verify, I know one or two linger here.

As for posting photos, I for one don't feel my humble efforts are worthy given the quality of work seen on this forum!

As for all forums facing a drop off in interest levels and posts I think it is probably true. What I do notice though is that a number of "active posters" share their work on multiple forums which is also affecting interest levels from lurkers. Why visit more than one forum when you are probably going to see the same items posted to FB, SMC, AAW, WWF etc? I'm certainly not knocking those who post & wish to thank them for sharing images or commentary.

My comment about reconsidering posting of images was somewhat tongue in cheek, but also had an element of truth to it. I'm not a very prolific turner of larger items of interest to the forum because a lot of my turning is for relaxation. I simply like making spinning tops and other small items. I have definitely reconsidered posting images of some of my work because of the AWTEX rules. I did not enter the comp this year because my potential entries were very close in design etc to items I had already shown & frankly I did not wish to face any hassles.

I can understand Sturdee's concerns. It definitely goes on.

I started off on this forum to learn as much as I could about woodturning. In doing that and not having a lathe of my own at the start I decided the best way to start learning was to read the forum and by that I do mean all of the forum. I have noticed over the years how the forum posts have ebbed and flowed, the usual bunch having a tongue in cheek dig at each other but over all the transfer of knowledge from the old to the new. I never posted a great deal unless I had a project such as a review of a tool or restoration of a lathe/lathes purely because both here and in real life idle banter has not been my thing. I've always preferred to sit back and listen unless I felt I had something of value to offer.
I have noticed a major change in this forum over the last couple of years and quite frankly it has left me with a bad taste in the mouth. Where once you could have your say on a topic whether right or wrong I now see posts edited or just deleted leaving the rest of the thread unintelligible by those such as myself who don't view the forum everyday. This heavy handed approach is fine for children but not for adults IMHO, the adults may act like kids at times but altering posts because someone is upset is childish in the extreme as is censoring someone in a post for a perceived wrong doing such as naming names then doing exactly the same thing in a following post.
As for the old guard leaving I have caught up with a number of them on Facebook and they all say the same thing, censoring and editing of posts and the double standards that have crept in over the last few years has left a decided bad taste in their collective mouths.
Anyway, as I stated preciously I post when I feel I have something that may help this forum and others who come here to read and learn, hopefully some will read this and think about their actions and the perceived power they have and act accordingly for the betterment of the forum.
Regards to all
Ross.

I no longer post on this forum but I do lurk sometimes.

Here are a couple of random thoughts before I get in the reasons for being missing in action.

1: All of the humour has disappeared. It is no longer a fun site where one can have a friendly verbal with other members.

2: The standard or moderating has fallen right off since "Retired" retired. He was a wealth of woodturning knowledge and always up for a bit of verbal, all in good fun.
"Play nicely kiddies" usually kept things in order when things started to get out of hand or members got close to crossing that invisible line.

Now for my reasons for no longer being active now.

For the reasons of clarity I'm going to name a couple of members here.

I protested at the continual postings about safety by Mobyturns and suggested they should be moved to the appropriate forum so the rest of us could muse about woodturning. The response I
received from Moby was
"If you don't like it don't read it".
Real friendly, I don't think.
Interestingly I had a couple of PMs in support of my views.

To a lesser extent I felt BobL long technical posts about dust extraction didn't belong on this forum but should be on the Dust Extraction forum.

I guess you both wanted to post where there was the most traffic.

This is not a personal attack guys. I'm just expressing my reasons for leaving this site after 14 years.

You may agree or disagree but those are my reasons

I'm in agreement with Sturdee's thoughts.

Why should I spend my time sharing my knowledge and trying to help others when I no longer enjoy the aggressive nature of some of the posters.

There are better places to be.

The bottom line is this site is no longer fun.

Cheers

Tim

If a mod edits or deletes a post for being aggressive, nasty, a personal attack or for any other reason that it should be deleted or edited they are called bastards and accused of over moderating and ruining the forums, usually by a very small hand full of the same few people.

If on the other hand they leave it and don't edit or delete an offending post they are accused of not doing their job and people leave because of the nastiness of a few people who seem to be intent on putting down others or just won't take their medication.

The moderators are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

It's a no win situation for mods and I'll bet if any of the complainants were mods they would act in exactly the same way, possibly even more heavy handed and have to be told to settle down.

Most members don't see even 1% of the garbage that is deleted and if it were not moderated there would be an outcry and the forums would be in a complete shambles. As an aside, most of the edited or deleted threads are done because they are reported by members.

You all have the power to report posts, and PM's. If you do then action may be taken against the offender(s) if deemed to be warranted. If you choose not to report offensive PM's then that is your choice but don't come crying to the mods when it gets out of hand and don't take it on to the open forums as this will most likely be edited because members will report it or just because that's not what we do here.

These forums are still one of the best run forums on the internet thanks to vigilant members and a great team of moderators. You don't know just how luck you all are.

As for the humour being gone... It hasn't gone just that the senseless drivel and stupid, funny to some annoying to others comments and hijackings have disappeared and most reasonable members are thankful for that.

Neil

Originally Posted by Tim the Timber Turner

I protested at the continual postings about safety by Mobyturns and suggested they should be moved to the appropriate forum so the rest of us could muse about woodturning. The response I
received from Moby was
"If you don't like it don't read it".
Real friendly, I don't think.
Interestingly I had a couple of PMs in support of my views.

Cheers

Tim

Tim, I have no problems with being named and truly appreciate your honesty and for being so candid. Unfortunately words and our in/ability (?) to convey our true emotions in the written word do not come out how we would like them to be interpreted. Not knowing a poster personally also makes it difficult to place a comment in context with the posters character.

My comment about "If you don't like it don't read it" is exactly that - its the readers choice to read on. As others have mentioned there are members who get offended by another's opinion then pursue the poster. I have faced a few attacks on this and other forums and some rather unpleasant emails over the years. Frankly I don't bother to read the vitriolic ones. There are a few members of WWF who know me personally and know that I am very pro safety and that I am one of the first to offer assistance to any turner who requires assistance. If I can help I will but if they don't want my help I back away.

One thing I will never apologize for is my stance on safety - far to many turners take unnecessary risks that can easily be reduced or totally avoided. Wheter the post goes in Safety or Woodturning does not really bother me, however it seems illogical to pigeon hole off a conversation about woodturning safety into a sub-forum that few woodturners read anyway. I will always stand by what I say.

Cheers
Geoff Whaling. (Mobyturns)

Neil, it's unfortunate that you have reacted this way. Predictably so may I add. Understandably because you own these forums.

I've already taken one of your mods to task in the last 24 hours for being highly hypocritical. However I did so in a PM. I understand that some members write some pretty awful stuff here and their posts deserve to be edited or deleted. Heck, I've had few edited (and deleted) in the past. My bad. BUT when one of your mods admonish someone for naming and shaming THEN shame the user publicly themselves, then I wince.

Some members here have made some extremely valid points on the subject originally raised. If these can't be acknowledged and taken aboard then I consider the forums are going to dwindle to a select few. I think that the moderators here do a brilliant job. But they've become too focused upon being vigilant and ceased being helpful. I've lost count at how many times I've seen moderators and seasoned users deride newer or less experienced users for asking simple questions. And, I consider that many of your moderators and experienced users (I'll have to exclude Christos here) have adopted a 'I know best, your point is irrelevant' stance.

Not that it matters however you have lost me from these forums, I lurk more than contribute. Many others have gone this way as well. More are on their way.

Originally Posted by ubeaut

You all have the power to report posts, and PM's. If you do then action may be taken against the offender(s) if deemed to be warranted. If you choose not to report offensive PM's then that is your choice but don't come crying to the mods when it gets out of hand and don't take it on to the open forums as this will most likely be edited because members will report it or just because that's not what we do here.

Neil

Neil,

After my last post I wanted to leave the subject alone so that the subject matter could be further explored by others but I feel I ought to comment on matters now raised.

At the time I was not aware of the policy of not allowing "naming and shaming" of members who sent nasty, vitriolic and downright malicious messages through the pm system. I still think that policy is wrong but I accept that are your rules.

Nevertheless by reading and deleting the post the moderator became aware of the full text of the messages, and available to all mods to read as deleted posts are only deleted from public view,and the mod obviously did not deem it sufficient to take any action about it. At least as far as I'm aware. Instead I seem to be watched and victimised whilst my nemesis can continue with impunity.

Also the comment made about P of PM stands for private is a furphy as it only relates in so far as distinguishing the system from the public system being the forums. According to my legal friends the right to make a private message is not absolute and the recipient of same can publish the contents wherever he wishes, be it forums, other blogs or even in newspapers.

But let us not get bogged down in technicalities and let's get back to the subject in hand.

Peter.

Originally Posted by Sturdee

Neil,

After my last post I wanted to leave the subject alone so that the subject matter could be further explored by others but I feel I ought to comment on matters now raised.

At the time I was not aware of the policy of not allowing "naming and shaming" of members who sent nasty, vitriolic and downright malicious messages through the pm system. I still think that policy is wrong but I accept that are your rules.

Nevertheless by reading and deleting the post the moderator became aware of the full text of the messages, and available to all mods to read as deleted posts are only deleted from public view,and the mod obviously did not deem it sufficient to take any action about it. At least as far as I'm aware. Instead I seem to be watched and victimised whilst my nemesis can continue with impunity.

Also the comment made about P of PM stands for private is a furphy as it only relates in so far as distinguishing the system from the public system being the forums. According to my legal friends the right to make a private message is not absolute and the recipient of same can publish the contents wherever he wishes, be it forums, other blogs or even in newspapers.

But let us not get bogged down in technicalities and let's get back to the subject in hand.

Peter.

This doesn't bode well for the forums, if the members dont have confidence in the Moderators, and from what i have seen, they seem to be taking the blame. Being new, i cannot comment on their doings, but what people need to remember, is they do this job for FREE.
As Neil mentioned, dammed if you do, dammed if you dont. I agree that deleting the Pm's is the correct thing to do, BUT, if someone is playing up in a thread, the Mods then should step in and publicly warn them. This will usually quiet the offender down.
In my Apple forum, the policy there is simple, if you wouldnt read something in a Disney Forum, then dont write it here.

Im really hoping this isnt the problem here, but the Report feature is the one of the best features to use. Even if you think a Mod is out of line, PM another Mod (or if there is a Admin here) and lt it be known you are not happy with the way something was conducted. Every single member should be able to feel safe and not violated in a public forum, and be allowed to ask whatever questions they like, without being ridiculed, but im not one for holding my tounge either.

The reason i am here, is because i want to be in a Aussie Wood Forum, because the 'others' dont understand our sense of humour, and Aussies will know Aussie wood.

Any way, that is my take on it, but i find it unnerving if people think the reason the forum is quiet is because of the Mods . . . . Will be something to watch.

There are probably a bunch of reasons and many forums seem to have falling participation. I have been on forums of every hobby I have been interested in virtually since the start of the internet (9600k modem from memory).

The ones that seem to have falling participation often have;

- Very specific technical content
- Very experienced members with technical knowledge but the inability to know when to shut the hell up (I suck at this bit on another forum)
- A number of ways to achieve the same outcome but members not accepting of this
- A high number of 'mature' members who get stuck in their ways (mature members seem to take things much more personally and as a personal attack on them)
- Moderators who have moderated the same forum for more than a couple of years (they end up like cops - everyone is a prick till proven ok )
- A single person in charge of the forum - (like a sole trader business it may struggle to grow and change)
- Interests change and people move on. The 'flavour' of the place changes. The banter and p&*& taking that was understood with each personality at the start gets lost in translation as people leave and others arrive
- A couple of new personalities arrive and cause havoc. One of my favorite forums has been virtually destroyed by this sadly.

Thats my generic take on struggling forums for what its worth. Sometimes it is good to know when to move on and let others make their mark.

I haven't been a poster on the forums in a while (and to be honest I've completely missed all the unpleasantness, but I usually put it down to the usual keyboard warriors if I see it) but I don't post pictures of my work simply because it's easier to do on Facebook. I usually use my phone to take photos of things in the shed and it's much easier to upload from there than to put it on the computer, re-size it and then post online. That's pretty much the only reason for me.

Josh