Thread: A Work in Progress

[QUOTEBig A;1797946]Jefferson,

Thank youfor your concerns, but did you read my Post #6?

Actually, my shape is pretty good for a bloke my age! With regard to the shape of the bowl, it does resemble a brake drum, but looks OK in the wood and you are the first person to make a comment. The recipients are extremely happy with it and that is what counts with me.

Alister.[/QUOTE]

Hi alister,
If you are happy with the bowl then thats ok
If you put a post up you should expect comments
good or bad , I was told the same thing once ......brake
drum/dog bowl etc....and that person was right, I was
devistated by the comments myself but I took It on
board and checked out form and shapes etc and then
you will realise what jeff is trying to tell you,
There Is a lot of experianced turners on the forum
and the comments they make are normaly only
to help and to try and Improve your turning!!!
I am sure he was only trying to help you Improve
your turning.
I am not too sure what age has to with anything?
most of us are old geezers!!,
Hope you can take the advice given and not take offence!

I meant no offence with my brake-drum comment. We all did that at some time. The question is really about accepting feedback and improving. If someone posts a pic and says, hey look at me! and it's not quite right, then I think I and others should say so honestly. Otherwise, you go on in your own little world and not get any better. I try to be diplomatic, a skill I probably need to improve on.

One of my best mates is an out and out Brake Drum Joe. Col will never get any better, he's just happy doing what he does. So be it.

It's a big, wide world out there in woodturning and at some point you need to put your hand up and ask for help. As I did on the forum so many years ago. I am better turner for it. And yes, I still have the first box I ever turned.

But don't put pics up and expect nothing but adulation. As I said, we all turned the same way at the start of the journey.

Alister,

One thing I enjoy about forums is the willingness to share a range of skills & knowledge from turners and also the range of tolerance & diplomacy some have or don't have. It is a pleasure to see someone like your self obviously very pleased with the fruits of their labours post and share their joy of making. Sometimes our written words or our economy in using them just don't convey our true meaning, feelings or intent in sharing commentary or our knowledge to assist another turner to find a "better" or "safer" method of making. I'm sure most are well meaning and only wish to assist you to achieve PB’s & most importantly to keep you safe so you can continue your joy of making. Having another turner willing to share their knowledge is a bonus to me.

On the safety issues,

Firstly I very much like your 3 point attitude to safety,

Files reworked into turning tools aren't such a good idea as very few makers of such tools have the knowledge or skills to make them well or suitable for long (or short) term safe use. The fact they have been in use a long time can be both an indication that they were made well OR that they have received enough use/abuse to create micro cracks etc & that they are likely to fail at any time.

Work holding methods for turners is serious business. Unfortunately turners receive serious injuries when tenons, wood worm screws, face plate wood screws, or unsound blanks fail. These hazards must never be taken lightly. Wood turners no matter their experience should heed or at least consider warnings or cautions from more cautious, experienced or knowledgable turners about the potential hazards & risks of performing tasks in a particular manner. We often overlook hazards from things like the inherent properties of some woods and their suitability or compatibility with some work holding systems. “Short grained” woods fail/shear easily on tenons, so we either use a larger diameter tenon with “bowl jaws” or a face plate & screws to overcome that hazard.

I also get more than a little nervous seeing fabricated jaw sets on 3 jaw machinists chucks. Like all tools they can be used safely by a knowledgable & skilled turner who understands the hazards and risks. However in inexperienced hands they are risky. 3 jaw chucks went out in the 1980's for a very good reason - the 4 jaw wood turners scroll chuck was far superior & efficient.

As for using scrapers vs bowl gouges, well that is a whole argument in itself but both have applications & their devotees. I use both and select the method on its merits in each application on safety, efficiency, impact upon my body & health, and outcome/result. Horses for courses & what works for you on the day.

I appreciate that many turners are on limited budgets and that many very well made items come off some very modest setups, but we should always strive to work as safely as we possibly can. Hope you continue to share your enthusiasm of making and strive to achieve personal bests with each piece that makes it onto the lathe.

Originally Posted by Drillit

Alister,
I hope that you will not be offended about what I am to say.
To turn a bowl of that magnitude with a scraper made of a file is dangerous.
Files are brittle and unless they have been re-tempered they can break and cause
serious injury. Given the wood shape, this is a real likelihood. I assume you will use
a faceplate and tailstock up for balance and safety. You need a 1/2" or 5/8" bowl
gouge to remove the bulk of stock and you can finish with a scraper. I
know there are all sorts of books, videos and u-tube references for bowl turning and
they will be helpful. But I suggest that you get some
local hands on advice (mens shed/woodturning group/local turner), and perhaps start on a smaller piece as a practical exercise.
A investment in a gouge will not go astray in any event. Others may also wish to express a view and help.
All the best, Drillit.

Read Drillit's post and throw the files in the bin...
just last week one of the blokes at mens shed had brought one in that I had not seen and was scraping a SMALL bowl blank when he had a catch.... the working end of the file hit the ceiling just lucky that its trajectory was clear of all human flesh
These things are dangerous

Regards
Bowl Basher

I'm sorry that we appeared to have frightened Alistair off.

Maybe pride has something to do with it, but he may be unwell, tired etc. so we should give him some space.

I can honestly say that I haven't had a piece depart from the lathe in many, many years. I refuse point-blank to turn wood with cracks, faults etc. I also use dovetailed tenons of the appropriate size. That's why I have so many chucks. And faceplates for jam chucks. Over 30 at last count.

And I do listen for the wood "ticking". No earmuffs here.

But I do get very concerned when I hear/read of turners scraping bowls out. One person in particular here on the board from the US that continues to use spindle roughing gouges on bowl work and advocates their use. Not sound advice. Not on hard Oz wood.

I've had two "incidents" in my turning workshop. One, caused by a wood fault that was ignored. Wrong The second when Col spun a platter in VM120 dovetail jaws at 3000 rpms. Needless to say, I (and the roof) were not impressed.

Turning is not a cheap past-time. Lathes, chisels, sharpening systems etc. And knowing all that, some "turn" with modified files. Lunacy.

Someone please Google Ken Wraight, Vic Wood, or Stephen Hughes and you will see where the bar is set. That's what I aim for but probably definitely will never get there.

After my mum died a few years back, Ken W re-turned a redgum platter that my dad had turned 25 years ago. At the time I was impressed. But not after Ken worked his magic. I've watched a few good/great turners turn. Jim McC and so many others. Now that is what I aim for - tool control. No sulking, just aspirations.

Sorry for the long post but it needed to be said.

Nah, you have not frightened me off. I was late getting to the computer last night and then I got a few "server busy" messages. I did not want to risk blowing a post after a bit of work, even though it is already written in Word.

I will post this last part and then turn (ha ha) my attention to the advice that I have received with this thread and the lessons that I have to note. (There are a few posts to read through and analyse so that may be tomorrow's job.)

When the inside of the bowl was done and sanded, I reversed chucked it on a jam chuck with the live centre holding it and cut away most of the tenon. The last bit of the tenon went on the belt sander.

It is now down to 245mm X 88mm and 1.02 kg, so there is 13 kg on the floor of the shed and up in water vapour.

0855 shows what to me is now a bowl, rather than a lump of wood. Sanded to 240 and ready for some WOP gloss.

There are probably better finishes than WOP, but for ease of use it is my choice for now. (I don’t really want to spend the time and money to learn to spray things, and other finishes and oils are yet to be tried.)

0858, 0859, 0860 are the finished article, with enough coats of WOP to do the job. It looks a bit shiny in the photos, but in real life less so. The recipients are absolutely thrilled with it – timber from their property, with the name, the timber and my discreet little touch mark on it.

Not turning, but image 0861 is the Mercy Cross. I have added image 0864 to show a couple of paper towel spikes, one from the same wood as the bowl I have posted about and a few other bits and s**ts bowls as well. I did a big run of WOPing. Looking at that collection, I really do need to see about some tuition. In a few years I might be competent.

Metadata from the photographs show that the block was started on 02/06 and the bowl finished about 09/07, so it took a while.

Thanks for looking.
Alister.

Alister, good to see we didn't scare you off.

A nice bowl that will be appreciated. Next time we will talk about the size of your tenons, proper diameters etc and how you got thus far without a bowl gouge. Again, send CWS an order for some Vcmarc bowl gouges and you will find the whole process more pleasant/pleasurable. Just got t make some decent handles.

Going by the finish (unless you sanded and sanded) you've done very well with the file tools that no-one here will condone. Buy some decent tools. Most of us have near or more than a hundred.

Originally Posted by jefferson

....... Most of us have near or more than a hundred.

I hope I do not get as bad as that.

As a new turner myself, & working on my first bowl, I found this thread very interesting.

I think there are valid points made about safety, Gouges v files & tenons, & I not only enjoyed reading the posts, but I learnt things along the way. I have a very nice set of chisels, but I just found out I am about 94 short of a set. I'm just learning how to sharpen & use 6

How will I know if I need different skills or different Chisels?.... At the moment, I feel I need to improve my skill level with the 6 I have, so I'll worry about the others at a later date.

I didn't know using Sharpend Files was dangerous, I mean, I can see how it would be with out a handle on it, but it seems they are. Glad I never stated down that road, now I never will.

I think the end result of Big A's bowl looks pretty good, but more importantly, Big A is happy with it.

I'm sure, no, absolutely positive that that all comments were well intended, & I think SAFETY issues should be pointed out quickly & clearly but comments on style .... Hmmm.

A few schools of thought there I suppose. On the one hand, If we blow sunshine up someone ass & say yeah mate, looks great, Are we doing them a favor if it looks like crap. I personally agree that that is not the best way for someone to improve. But I'm also thinking maybe constructive criticism, a few style suggestions, might be better than coming straight out & bagging someones work.

I am new to turning, but have been a member of these woodworking forums for many years. Mainly, I build furniture, & I would say that my work, on a score of 100, would prolly rate at about 25 to 40, compared to the better crafts people on these forums, & that could be over rated. But I am very proud of every thing I make, because when I complete a project, I know that I have done the very best I can do. It's prolly not as good as you can do, but it is as good as I can do.

Suggest and encourage I think.

JMO


Steve

Reading all the above I feel I should put a case for the ' old files' school of woodturning.
Old files (as apposed to some modern ones) are good quality carbon steel and, if tempered and hardened appropriately (as mentioned above) and provided with a proper handle, make excellent turning tools for those of us who find it difficult to justify spending anything from £30 to £70 for a 'quality' 'named' chisel & anything up to £300 for a fancy sharpening jig.
I have skews, scrapers, flute-less gouges, bedans & parting tools all made from old files and have been turning for quite a while, I still have all my fingers and no holes in my head except those nature intended.
Other items made from old files include a variety of small chisels, leatherworking & woodworking awls, marking knives, Scribers etc.
My point being that old files are an excellent source of carbon steel and if a tool made from a 10p car boot sale file is made correctly it is no more dangerous than a tool costing £35.53p + PP (Henry Taylor 1" round scraper).




Mark

Originally Posted by Old-Biker-UK

.... My point being that old files are an excellent source of carbon steel and if a tool made from a 10p car boot sale file is made correctly it is no more dangerous than a tool costing £35.53p + PP (Henry Taylor 1" round scraper). Mark

You have valid points about files, but two things jump out for me "old files are an excellent source of carbon steel" & "(If it) is made correctly".

My issue is that no matter how much effort is put into education or disseminating information on tool use, safety or technique there will always be turners who ignore, misunderstand or incorrectly identify items or will fail to faithfully follow techniques/advice in making or repurposing a tool. That will never change. I believe very few turners have the equipment, knowledge or skill to re-purpose old files safely.

As a generalization – files are unsafe to use as turning tools. Many (all?) clubs are being forced to ban “home made” tools to comply with hazard & risk management requirements by their insurers. I for one will not turn near or be in the presence of a turner using old files to turn with.

We have gone a little bit off the original topic in regards to using files.

I will consider leaving the last two post in this thread and suggest that another thread be started in regards to the use of files.

I quite enjoyed the work in progress that the member had created. Wood turning is not an easy topic to create a work in progress as quite often the case the piece would be finished within a short period of time.

Originally Posted by Big A

Nah,you have not frightened me off. I was late getting to the computer last night and then I got a few "server busy" messages. I did not want to risk blowing a post after a bit of work, even though it is already written in Word.

I will post this last part and then turn (ha ha) my attention to the advice that I have received with this thread and the lessons that I have to note. (There are a few posts to read through and analyse so that may be tomorrow's job.)

When the inside of the bowl was done and sanded, I reversed chucked it on a jam chuck with the live centre holding it and cut away most of the tenon. The last bit of the tenon went on the belt sander.

It is now down to 245mm X 88mm and 1.02 kg, so there is 13 kg on the floor of the shed and up in water vapour.

0855 shows what to me is now a bowl, rather than a lump of wood. Sanded to 240 and ready for some WOP gloss.

There are probably better finishes than WOP, but for ease of use it is my choice for now. (I don’t really want to spend the time and money to learn to spray things, and other finishes and oils are yet to be tried.)

0858, 0859, 0860 are the finished article, with enough coats of WOP to do the job. It looks a bit shiny in the photos, but in real life less so. The recipients are absolutely thrilled with it – timber from their property, with the name, the timber and my discreet little touch mark on it.

Not turning, but image 0861 is the Mercy Cross. I have added image 0864 to show a couple of paper towel spikes, one from the same wood as the bowl I have posted about and a few other bits and s**ts bowls as well. I did a big run of WOPing. Looking at that collection, I really do need to see about some tuition. In a few years I might be competent.

Metadata from the photographs show that the block was started on 02/06 and the bowl finished about 09/07, so it took a while.

Thanks for looking.
Alister.

Hi alister,
You have a nice collection there well done!
The cross looks good too,
Doesn, t matter how long It takes, as long as
you are happy with the end result

Well, I have had a bit of a sulk, had a dose of HTFU and will now get on with life.

At the very worst, I had thoughts that this forum was an old boy’s club and there was a conspiracy to slap a newcomer down – I had lots of time to ponder while I was removing French polish from a desk. But that passed, as I realised that it was just tough love. However, I have an observation to make, and that is that some of you perhaps need to work on your presentation skills. Some of the replies got the message through in a much nicer way.

I don’t really know why I decided to put the WIP up, other than sharing. It seemed like a good idea at the time and I suppose I was after platitudes, (rather than adulation as one poster put it) more for the effort of doing the posting than for the bowl. After all, the beauty of any article is in the eye of the beholder, so naturally there would be comments that I would not like. The thread has been a great opportunity for learning. Note that I did not say it was a learning experience – being given advice and not taking notice of it is not learning. So I may or may not learn!

What have I picked up so far? An experienced turner can be prescient and tell that the final shape will be just from photos of the rough cut! Using old files is not on. Fabricated jaw sets can be risky. There is at least one big dick out there – mine is quite small by comparison and likely to remain so unless I win Lotto. A tenon needs to be as big as it needs to be and that depends. Tuition from a good or master turner is a good idea.

Mobyturns, I will not quote your post No 19, but refer to it and thank you very much. You have said what needed to be said in a nice way. There is a pat on the back and encouragement, but also a kick in the behind for using practices that are less safe. You said most of what I was going to say, but from your side of the equation and put some reasonableness into the debate.

Most of you would know about the saying that if you represent yourself in a court of law, you have fool for a client. So, if you are a self taught turner, did you have a fool for a pupil?

Thanks for all your comments. After all that, it was mostly a pleasure to present this WIP. My next WIP will be on making your own turning tools and will be posted on the first day of April next year.

Alister.