Thread: Robert Sorby- Are They The Most Innovative?

Many people are not prepared to to do the hard yard and learn some efficient techniques. The self discipline, needed to do bead and cove exercises with the conventional gouges and skew, is often too tedious and a solution with the now famous xyz tool the much prefered course of action. With the "baby boomers" with perceived surplus resources, are a good target for that new gizmo tool, when a little thought produces a better solution. There were plenty of wood turners, in the days when they were in demand, survived without all the "latest" new ideas. Many of the "new" concept tools are variations on an old idea.

Most "new" tools are bought because of peer pressure or bragging rights, not because they are more efficient. Development in the composition of new steels for tools is probably the only real new development. Chucks in their various forms have been around for hundreds of years, but each manufacturer will introduce an innovation only to steal a march on their competitor, and convince the turner that this one is better than the next.

Jim

I have many Sorby woodturning chisels I have been buying them long before HSS tools were available Sorby tools are of a very high quality
and as far as I am aware always have been, but they also produce a lot of useless cr%$p

I LOVE doodads and widgets! Love them!

But, the number being used on a daily basis is severely reduced....from wanting everything in the Sorby Catalogue to now only using about 5 basic tools. There are about 10 chisels on the rack, but the only ones reached for are always the basic ones.

I've even found the gadgets for sharpening don't get used... The angle holders and adjuster douverlackies... It's all done by hand, a light touch and close eye.... On CBN wheels of course.

True Innovation is rare. Most products are just evolutionary. It's the way of things.

So is it wrong to suggest that Sorby, with their clever marketing and big range of tools, maybe the biggest seller of woodturning tools and accessories in the world?

Originally Posted by Kidbee

So is it wrong to suggest that Sorby, with their clever marketing and big range of tools, maybe the biggest seller of woodturning tools and accessories in the world?

You could suggest it but without copies of sales figures from all the companies in question it's hard to prove.

In my collection of a couple of dozen turning chisels and a selection of other various coring and holing tools, there is only one Sorby and I'm in no hurry to add another. So it all comes down to personal preference.

I found sorby was too soft for certain timbers I am want to play with. So I got rid of them.

Originally Posted by Kidbee

So is it wrong to suggest that Sorby, with their clever marketing and big range of tools, maybe the biggest seller of woodturning tools and accessories in the world?

Does it matter?

Originally Posted by Kidbee

So is it wrong to suggest that Sorby, with their clever marketing and big range of tools, maybe the biggest seller of wood turning tools and accessories in the world?

I think it would be wrong. Just think of how many sets of basic wood turning tools of Chinese origin that are sold through hardware & "box" stores compared to every quality tool sold. Same applies to generic chucks, centers, and any other tool or accessory they can knockoff.

Originally Posted by Mobyturns

I think it would be wrong. Just think of how many sets of basic wood turning tools of Chinese origin that are sold through hardware & "box" stores compared to every quality tool sold. Same applies to generic chucks, centers, and any other tool or accessory they can knockoff.

China and Innovation. Well, there's a topic closed off in a single sentence.

I was thinking about this thread overnight.

It's very hard to consider how true innovation can be applied to a single industry. Given that almost every innovation and invention are absolutely inevitable progressions from earlier ideas and thoughts (flight, electricity, radio, cars, etc) it seems reasonable to look at how industrial applications are brought in from other industries.

When one thinks about Steel-->high carbon-->HSS-->Carbide chisels, then other areas like metal turning 3 jaw chucks --> jamb chucks-->4 jaws-->Sorby click-on jaws, then new sharpening models of slip stones-->grinders-->slow speed grinders-->CBN wheels (perhaps belt grinders in there somewhere) ..... You do see innovations occurring (at least cross contaminations!)

Where a company might be seen as innovative is to adapt from other industries, tool up, incur costs and give it a go.

Taking risks on ideas that might not pan out IS innovation. It might not be popular with the consumer (cost, marginal improvement, effort to learn, apathy) but that doesn't mean they aren't innovative.

I think, given these things, it is reasonable to assume that Sorby is innovative.

Additionally I believe it qualifies as innovative as it has an entire catalogue of things to sell. It is offering a *range* of tools (like the Festool System) not just a box of 6 chisels (only the most popular ones!) made to the lowest price and bulk sold via a discount chain.... (that's commoditisation)

Whether one "likes their steel" or has complaints about the angle of this-or-that isnt germane... For innovation is evolutionary, it's only a matter of time and consumer feedback and this will be sorted out (if it's indeed a problem).

One thing I won't argue about, at all, is the Longworth Chuck! Man, that dude needs an AO or something!

Originally Posted by Evanism

China and Innovation. Well, there's a topic closed off in a single sentence.

I was thinking about this thread overnight.

It's very hard to consider how true innovation can be applied to a single industry. Given that almost every innovation and invention are absolutely inevitable progressions from earlier ideas and thoughts (flight, electricity, radio, cars, etc) it seems reasonable to look at how industrial applications are brought in from other industries.

When one thinks about Steel-->high carbon-->HSS-->Carbide chisels, then other areas like metal turning 3 jaw chucks --> jamb chucks-->4 jaws-->Sorby click-on jaws, then new sharpening models of slip stones-->grinders-->slow speed grinders-->CBN wheels (perhaps belt grinders in there somewhere) ..... You do see innovations occurring (at least cross contaminations!)

Where a company might be seen as innovative is to adapt from other industries, tool up, incur costs and give it a go.

Taking risks on ideas that might not pan out IS innovation. It might not be popular with the consumer (cost, marginal improvement, effort to learn, apathy) but that doesn't mean they aren't innovative.

I think, given these things, it is reasonable to assume that Sorby is innovative.

Additionally I believe it qualifies as innovative as it has an entire catalogue of things to sell. It is offering a *range* of tools (like the Festool System) not just a box of 6 chisels (only the most popular ones!) made to the lowest price and bulk sold via a discount chain.... (that's commoditisation)

Whether one "likes their steel" or has complaints about the angle of this-or-that isnt germane... For innovation is evolutionary, it's only a matter of time and consumer feedback and this will be sorted out (if it's indeed a problem).

One thing I won't argue about, at all, is the Longworth Chuck! Man, that dude needs an AO or something!

Thank you Evanism. I think you have summed up the matter very well with that post.

On innovations, for this bowl turner the most valuable have been:

• Bowl gouges with suitable flute profiles - yes there was a time before we had them. http://www.peterchild.co.uk/info1/sflute.htm
• Development of the various swept back grinds - by whatever name you call them. Check out Peter/Roy Child's book, The Crafsman Woodturner, to be reminded how gouges were ground prior to that.
• The three-jaw chuck with jaws specifically for woodturners - developed by Teknatool in NZ.
• High Speed Steel tools (Henry Taylor in UK and Jerry Glaser in US) and later hybrid powdered metals with high vanadium (Jerry Glaser in US) and high cobalt (Hamlet and Crown in UK).
• Swivel head lathes for outboard bowl turning - outboard turning on the rear of the headstock was clunky.
• Variable speed control on lathes
• Diamond and CBN grinding wheels - more of an adoption by woodturners than an innovation by them and their mass production has now brought their price down to where they are an option for many woodturners.
• Deep hollowing tools - David Ellsworth in US did a lot of the pioneering work and various manufacturers have elaborated from there (including Rolly Munro and Woodcut in NZ).

Most of us can adapt an existing tool to do those specialised tasks we have from time to time, but few of us had what was required to bring about the above major innovations that have made such a difference for woodturners, and in particular for us bowl/faceplate turners.

Sorby doesn't seem to figure all that prominently in the above list...

Originally Posted by Kidbee

Is it fair to say that Robert Sorby are the most innovative makers of woodturning tools in the world?

From my observations, they must have a great Research and Development team.

I think the simple answer is No, IMHO. Couple of things - they have not really embraced carbide cutters. Their Turnmaster series
have too much overhang. They are essentially locked into HSS, including their cutters on their hollowing system.
Their Ultima system is based on the largely defunct Exocet sytem. Their Pro edge sharpening system has a number of shortcomings which have been drawn to
their attention. They market them as "theirs" - so when backed into a corner the response was that they cant make
changes, not matter how desirable because they are made by Tormek. I won't go on, because I am sure many would
support them and see their products as top shelf. I dont. Drillit.

Originally Posted by Kidbee

So far the posts have had a lot of negativity towards Sorby tools. I am sure there are a lot of turners on this forum who have been satisfied Sorby users.

If you search around a bit they seem to have a very large range of products.

If they are not the most innovative, who is? Who has the largest range of tools if it is not Sorby; that I would like to know?

Are Hamlet better than Sorby?

I bought my Sorby set 3 years ago. I was just getting into turning and had spent a lot of time researching tools and prices. I nearly bought a set of hamlet from carbatec. They had their 5 tool set for $207 at the Brisbane wood show. I got my Sorby set from Jim Carroll on the fact they had the Sorby 6 tool starter set for $210. The fact that I got one tool for $3 more after comparing prices was a big factor in my choice. Upon saying that I also figured that English tool steel has a good reputation I couldn't go wrong. Since buying this set I have bought 3 more Sorby tools because I do like them. I only wished that P&N would have done a similar set for turners starting out.