Thread: Tormek sharpening machine

Hi Dez Built,
Yes, As Brendan said & China. Join a Wood Club, more so than a Men's Shed, as the Woodies have been at it a lot longer than the Shed Chaps.
I use a 60G. & a 120G. x 6in. / 150 wheels, & Sharpen Free Hand, & Mate you wouldn't want to sit on My Tools.
Yes it takes awhile to learn to get that good edge on your tools . We all went down that track at one time or another.
Don't Grind your Tools, Sharpen them.
Think about what Jefferson said, $300 for a wheel.
You can most likely get into as much trouble with a Tormek as you can with Grinder.
Put a groove in the Tormek, & try & get that out.
That's My 2 Cents worth, as I'd rather another Chuck & a couple of Tools.

Originally Posted by artme

Interesting that no one has really pointed out that many who take up woodturning do so later in life and are most definitely NOT from a trade background.Sharpening wil be a real challenge for them.

I have a friend who sharpens his gouges freehand in a particular way - a way I wish I could emulate. I find tools aharpened this way cut better for me, but as I am unable to sharpen like this I just use a Trugrind type jig and I can do a pretty reasonable job with tools so sharpened.

It is hardly fair to criticise those who find sharpening difficult without a jig. We all just want to turn. To do that we need sharp tools. If this requires a jig, then amen to that.

My post was not intended to be critical of anyone using a jig and I understand fully the time required to master the art of freehand. My point was directed at those who are of the opinion that a professional job can't be done freehand.

Originally Posted by brendan stemp

Exactly how have I bagged the T, Jeff.

Brendan, as a professional turner who has openly stated that he owns but does not use his Tormek says plenty. You've demonstrated at Turnfest, have written for the AWW and your work is shown across a fair slab of Victoria. If you're not using your Tormek, why not? Surely, there must be a reason. As one of the few pros here on the Board, spit it out and give us the whole story, not part of it.

Originally Posted by NeilS

Any ease, or consistency, of use provided my the T system is equally provided by other jig systems for the bench grinder.

Which jigs are you referring to, Neil? The Truegrind doesn't do scrapers well - you really need a platform for that. And if ALOX wheels are so good, why did you spend the $ and buy the diamond wheels at say $150 a pop? I've seen one in action and they definitely run cooler - a good selling point.

Originally Posted by rsser

I regard the whole setup as a naked emperor; the jigs are worth a look but there are others on the market.

Fact is, Ern, you've been against the Tormek system from the start. You bought a Sheppach first and weren't happy with the quality. And the cost of the Tormek system has always riled you.

I can't understand your angst - $860 odd for a machine with a ten year guarantee, quality jigs (extra) and 4 wheels takes some tossing. That's $80 odd dollars PER YEAR for sharpening against the cost of what for ALOX wheels and grinder? Add in superior finish off the wheel and I'm sold.

I also smile at those here that say they do it all freehand and do it just as well as using a jig system, Tormek or not. The same people talk of tool snobbery! What a joke. Sharpening is a metalworking, not wood working skill, if anything. Just count the facets.

The general consensus seems divided.

That said, I've been to Turnfest the last 3 years and the WWW shows for the last 4 and the Tormeks continue to walk out the door from the tool shops. We are talking serious $ from serious turners. Why? The short answer is the system works, almost all of the time.

Sure, it can be slow. That's why you buy the BM100 bar. And it doesn't sharpen my 1 1/4 inch P & N roughing gouge. And bigs scrapers are a pain. And skews also don't seat too well in the jig. But it does sharpen most else, particularly my gouges and mini tools. TORMEK SHARP. Plus a miriad of other woodworking and non wood working tools.

Some say the system is slow. As a jig user, it is definitely faster than all I've tried, including the Truegrind. We are talking less that a minute to sharpen a bowl gouge once you are set and in the groove. And no second-guessing any angles or facets.

And ISSATREE, if you use the stone correctly, you don't furrow overmuch. Even if you do, the leveling system has you back on track in no time.

What else? Flatter concave bevels for start, due to the larger stone diameter. When the stone is dead, it is still larger than most ALOX wheels.

And did I mention sharp and easy to use? Almost fool-proof. Even Jeff proof.

I hear a lot about the cost. Amortised over its life, the investment is minimal.

And no bad accidents either. Just ask Guilo Marcolongolo about that. He's another pro on the circuit who is probably looking seriously at a Tormek.

No sparks, no fires, no noise. Time to reflect and work on the shape of your chisel. Then get it SHARP. I say it again, SHARP. Sharper than any ALOX or diamond wheel.

No question, as Ern has already indicated, it's not all A-Z. There is a learning curve to the Tormek system - the same learning curve for free-handers but a whole lot more forgiving. And precise. But with plenty of support via a great instruction manual and DVD.

Did I mention a 10 year warranty? Of course I did. Sharp? Band-aid sharp.

And all that adds up to a more enjoyable turning experience. Which is the reason for buying one in the first place.

Jeff, better do your forum research a bit better.

I was quite happy with the Scheppach and only went to the T. cos of all the fuss about it and I wanted to evaluate it so I could provide informed advice to my students. The cost of the T. is ridiculous and it doesn't yield on its promise of 'painting by numbers'. See all the queries on the T. forum in the US.

That said, it's a great tool say for regrinding the bevel of an A2 Veritas plane blade (3/16" thick, about 2" wide) Grinds quickly and doesn't blue. But the cost premium is also ridiculous and for those of us who are 'time-rich' a good bench grinder wheel will do the job.

Except in one oblique comment you haven't addressed the key issues of fitness for purpose and cost-effectiveness. Those are what a turner (and any other woodie) needs to know about.

You say the result is sharp on a T., better than a diamond wheel (and presumably simple hand honing). Have you tested this? Which T. wheel/grade are you taking as your benchmark?

Have a read of the tests by Neil and in American WoodTurner.

Let's not get tribal about this in respect of the OP concern. Let's get empirical.

Sounds like a song in there ;-)

I am watching this thread with some amusement (or should I say bemusement?).

The machine being described here by some with almost religious fervour is only an ordinary wet grinder, consisting of a shaft running in some bushes, friction driven by a simple electric motor.
It is being invested with almost magical powers that will turn you in to a "professional" turner almost overnight.
As for "value", well the "buy me now for $850 and I will give you $1200 in grind stones" puts that in perspective.

How did wood turners over the centuries get on without this magical machine? They didn't even have electricity, they used a foot driven wet wheel grinder (see the concept wasn't invented by Tormek, really).

I said before, and I say it again, the real value in the Tormek system is not in a $1000 wet grinder, it is in the jigs, which can be used on any grinder (even my very down market Scheppach) or a spark grinder with a wheel of your choosing.

Some people get way too evangelical about the tools we use, driven by market hype and commercial interest.

I think Brendan raised a valid point and does not deserve to be attacked for expressing his opinion.

Now let me get this right..."It doesn't sharpen my 11/4 P&N roughing gouge and big scrapers are a pain and skews don't seat too well." And this thing costs over $800?

Originally Posted by rustynail

And this thing costs over $800?

without the jigs which will nearly double the price.

I have the jigs and use it with my grinder and the seppach wet wheel grinder which is a better proposition for most pleasure turners where time is not of the essence but the journey is enjoyable.


Btw I have no problems with the scrapers and skews.


Peter.

I'm happy to sit on the fence on this one as I use both methods with a reasonable degree of proficiency. The wet grind whatever brand it is has one serious advantage which has been overlooked in this post.
The absence of airborne fine particulate silicate or other mineral dust should be part of the consideration.

Just as with any interest / hobby / artisan profession / etc. Turning is one that has a wide variety of technique, method and tools to accomplish a result.

The 'quality' of those results vary due to experience, individual taste, skill, the raw material and the demeanour of the turner as he/she applies steel to wood.

I am just a hobby turner and have been so for 10+ years. I claim no great skill nor experience in the craft. I turn wood for my own pleasure and sometimes I end up with an object that has either utility or a pleasing asthetic form.

On even rarer occasions I get both!!

I owe a debt of gratitude to the kind people on this forum who on the very day I registered, pointed to me to an ebay sale where I purchased my lathe (an unused MC900) for the princely sum of $102! This was a great step forward from the GMC I had been using for a couple of years previously.

I attended a gathering at 's once and was delighted at how welcoming and friendly everyone was! (BTW TL, I've learned not to 'choke' my chisels in a death grip anymore!)

I have succumbed at times over the years to the lure of purchasing additional tools, chisels and chucks, (as have we all!) but have tried to keep such expenditure within the context of a hobby turner.

At times, the argy-bargy on this forum does tend to get a bit heated. And as a long term lurker, the times when I see this happen most often is when the discussion is focussed upon "Model A" vs "Model B".

Such a discussion brings out comments of support from those who own a specific product (or would perhaps desire such) and comments of an opposite nature from others.

Usually within the first page of replies, the thread has degenerated, become personal and is of no practical use to the OP.

It is very similar to the discourse I would hear years back when I was in an Italian motorcycle owner's club. A new model would come out and overnight the collective opinion would shift in relation to the previous model. What was once lusted after and desired would be considered 'crap' overnight.

Owners of the previous model bike would strut indignantly and bemoan others who had made the (usually considerable) purchase of the new bike. The irony is that neither owner would have 1/4 of the skill needed to ride their bikes to their limits.

What strange creatures we are at times..

Hey OP, purchase the gear you can afford, then enjoy using it!
If you want the Tormek, GO FOR IT. I'd shy away from buying a US spec one, simply due to the hassle of downconverting 240VAC to 110VAC.

Originally Posted by jefferson

Which jigs are you referring to, Neil? The Truegrind doesn't do scrapers well - you really need a platform for that. And if ALOX wheels are so good, why did you spend the $ and buy the diamond wheels at say $150 a pop? I've seen one in action and they definitely run cooler - a good selling point.

Jeff - I use custom made jigs. My point was that it is the jigs that provide the repeatability and the ease of use, and for that matter I consider a platform to be a jig as it repeatedly and predictably sets the grind angle.

It wasn't me who said that ALOX wheels were 'so good', but do think they are just fine and would be still happily using them if I hadn't progressed on to the diamond wheel. What I did say was "any ease, or consistency, of use provided by the T system is equally provided by other jig systems for the bench grinder".

As for the cost of the diamond wheels, yes they are expensive and a significant outlay compared to ALOX, but a little less than half the cost of a standard SG-250 Torment replacement wheel, and you don't have to buy a whole grinding machine and a swag of accessories to use it.

Having said the above, I'm not wanting to buy into any dry vs wet grinder trench warfare. I was in the thick of the Mac-PC skirmishes (as a referee) in an earlier life and see no value in such entrenched positions. If slow wet grinders ring your bell and you can afford it, go for it. As Farnk said... Enjoy! But, as Jim also said, there are a variety of quite satisfactory solutions to suit various needs and preferences.

Ern has made a good point about fitness for purpose. The edge I want on a kitchen knife is very different from the edge I want on a bowl gouge or the edge I want on a scraper. I don't need the same degree of sharpness on every tool. But, the edge off the diamond wheel is as good as I need for any of my turning needs. Your mileage may be different.

Jeff, if you like the flatter grind off a 10" wheel you may prefer the completely flat grind off a belt sander, and they run slower and thus grind cooler than an ALOX wheel.

PS - I'm a real fan of wet grinding Japanese knives, ie with flat waterstones.

G'day Guys and Gals

Most of you will won't know me by this username, but I was a regular known as DJ's Timber.

Have been following this thread with interest and as Big Shed said, bemusement

Anyway, thought I'd weight in, as I was sold after a particular weekend at 's where most that attended, will remember that I had my Vicmarc VL300 dancing in 's shed whilst turning a decent size redgum bowl (which is still sitting in the shed waiting to have the bottom flattened) and when Jeff bought his Tormek with him and stayed at my place for a few days.

Anyway, that first day at 's after most people left, I sharpened my P&N Gouge, it was either a 16mm Supa or Bowl Gouge, can't remember, on 's Tormek and yes it took time to establish the new grind but by boy did it cut well and it lasted by my reckoning, three times longer as it was a more refined edge as opposed to one off a spark grinder. And before you bag me, I've used and tried quite a few different jigs,etc. I can also sharpen drillbits by hand down to about 2mm on a spark grinder with a freshly faced wheel but mostly use my Drill Doctor now as my eyesight isn't the same as it was not to mention that they last longer.

I have since bought a T7 and also use it more for other purposes rather than Turning, heck I nearly sliced the tip of my finger off prior to Xmas sharpening some knives for one of my best mate's missus.

Point I'm trying to make here and also being from a metallurgy background and lots of experimenting with different methods, is that the use of jigs makes a big difference, regardless of type of grinder used.

I could have continued sharpening by hand and my Trugrind jig, and drill bits freehand but because I could afford to, I chose to go the T7 and Drill Doctor route as it removes the worry of overheating and also gives me a repeatable setting.

I am a retired person with adequate but limited income.

I am sure the Tormek is a good grinder.

A little perspective:

I bought my first "good" lathe, an almost new Hegner 175, (350mm swing) with Oneway chuck, Oneway live center set, 8 inch 1725 rpm grinder - 80 & 120 grit wheels, with platform and V pocket with Varigrind and fixed bowl gouge jigs. All for $500

I now have 120 grit wheels on both sides of the grinder, V pocket one one side, and platform on the other. I use the jigs and my bowl gouges slice the hardest wood and leave a polished surface.

I can sharpen my heavy scrapers and Bedan type tools on the platform with a 5 second swipe. For the final scraping I hone the scraper top on a piece of 400 grit paper on the lathe bed.

Spindle gouges are done freehand. I have a fair amount of carbon steel tools that are sharpened with a light touch and quickly. I rarely blue an edge.

My accursed skews came with good bevels and have only been sharpened by
honing on either a flat diamond pad or with 400grit on the lathe bed.

My 20 inch swing, short bed variable speed Woodfast cost $850.

The Woodfast is a lot more value to me than a Tormek.

One damn fool's opinion.

With any wet grinder do you need to lower the bucket when not in use all the time? Will it dry out if left over night ?? Just have not seen this clearly answered for a potential new user. ta

I found it worthwhile to empty and clean it of grit and swarf after a major session. HC steel tends to speckle the wheel with rust.

Also it's advisable to have the wheel dry out if you live in sub-zero temps as it can crack on freezing.