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16th March 2016, 10:40 AM #1SENIOR MEMBER
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Wadkin RS lathes, an out of the box question.
Hi all,
This post is going to show my ignorance to most things related to woodturning, so I apologise in advanced. I would say that compared to most here, I have only really put my small toe in the water (given some non-professional tutoring, and played around turning a few things, and practicing techniques).
I have an opportunity that has several potential paths, one option is a bit "out of the box", and this is the one I probably need the advice on, as this opportunity probably wont come up again (so I can't wait until I know more about turning). More on this in a minute, but first here is a bit of the background story to explain where I am, at the moment.
Thanks to some forum members, and my location, I was able to get involved with purchasing 5 Wadkin RS lathes. There was a 10", three 8", and one 6". Initially we had 5 buyers and 5 lathes, so it was looking like an easy decision, but unfortunately one member had to drop out (due mostly I think to transport costs, and it was very understandable, and certainly no hard feelings from this end). This left a spare lathe, he did offer to organise another buyer to take his place, but I decided as I couldn't decide between the 6 and the 8, I would take both and decide later.
Here is an image of what an Wadkin RS lathe is (for those who have not heard of them):
and some specifications of both:
RS 6" - GAP BED - 4 speeds, 1.1 kW (1.5 HP) (3 phase). Capacity: Admits work up up to 305 mm (12") dia x 1065 mm (42") long; will swing 620 mm (24.5") dia x 305 mm (12") wide in the gap. Floor Space 7' x 2'3" (2135mm x 685mm). Weight 625kg
RS 8" - GAP BED LATHE - 4 speeds, 1.1 kW (1.5 HP). Admits work up to 405 mm (16") dia x 1675 mm (66") long. Will swing 710 mm (28") dia by 305 mm (12") in the gap. Floor Space 9' x 2'3" (2745mm x 685mm). Weight 675kg
Now the obvious answer to this dilemma is make a decision 6" or 8", and like I am sure is the same for many others, that decision is fairly easy as I just can't justify the extra 2' length of the 8".
Here is my "out of the box" idea though. The only difference between the 6" and the 8" on the Wadkin RS (as far as I know, and I will obviously confirm this before attempting), is the cast leg is shorter on the 8" and the bed attaches to the head casting lower down. This effectively means that with some work, I could potentially make a short bed 8" and a long bed 6", then simply swap the tail stock and banjo's from one lathe to the other.
Here is probably my impossible question to answer, will I really need the extra diameter? It's an impossible question to answer, as I have no idea where I might go with turning, so how can I expect anyone else to know. So I guess my question should really be, what turning have you done, that would not fit into the capacity of the 6" lathe including the gap and the potential for outside turning using this tripod setup (which I also have with the lathe)??
Obviously taking into account the fact that I have decided I can't fit the longer length of the 8" (so I am talking projects that didn't exceed between centres of 1065mm). I guess the other things to consider would be:
* Speed (this is 240,600,1250,2800), but I will probably add a VFD so will then have an infinite range up to about 3350 (this was the speeds in countries with 60Hz, so everything should be designed to handle at least this speed)
* No reverse - Obviously I could do reverse with the VFD, but faceplates are threaded on, so unless their is a way to lock them in place, they could come loose (or is this just me showing my ignorance, perhaps there is a way to prevent this).
There are perhaps other restrictions that I am not aware of, due to my ignorance, but I guess to be clear, I am not asking should I buy a Wadkin RS (that decision has been made), but should I consider the option of trying to convert the 6" into a short 8" RS?
As always, thanks in advanced for any advice on this matter. It's a problem, but a problem I am happy to have (I have been looking for an RS for a long time, they do come up occasionally, but usually they far exceed my budget).
Cheers,
Camo
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16th March 2016, 12:23 PM #2GOLD MEMBER
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Oh you fortunate people!!! Too many Wadkins. One can buy a really nice car for what a Wadkin sells for here in the US.
I would keep the 8 inch and make a platform to fit on the end of the bed for your grinder, table saw, jointer, planer, or just a work bench.
There is enough weight on the 6 inch to swing a big lump on the outboard for larger pieces. If you take out the gap and are using a chuck for bowls the 12 inch length of gap might not be enough for a deeper bowl.
If the bed of the 6 inch would interchange with the 8 inch that would solve the problem and the smaller swing and longer bed would suit a spindle turner who makes canopy beds.
If I hear of you sawing off the bed of the 8 inch I will come to AU and geld you with a rusty tomato can lid.
Lots of info on Wadkin lathes can be found here:
Wadkin RS, RU & RUH Lathes
<cite class="_Rm">www.lathes.co.uk/wadkin/</cite>
E-MAIL Tony@lathes.co.uk ... WADKIN RS, RU and RUH Lathes .... Wadkin RS wood-turning lathe fitted with the optional rack-driven carriage assembly and ...So much timber, so little time.
Paul
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16th March 2016, 01:55 PM #3SENIOR MEMBER
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Paul,
Rest assured nothing stupid like that. I am a big fan of older woodworking machinery, and have a few Wadkin machines, so I would beat myself to death before sawing off the bed.
My understanding is that the beds are bolted on with 2 bolts each side, and there is also a locator pin on both sides which is done during fitting and assembly. Quickly looking yesterday, I think the holes are already there and tapped for the 6" & 8" location, except the locator pin hole (obviously as that would have been done as part of fitting). My approach, if I did it would be to have the locator holes professionally done, and simply trade the bolt on leg casting. It still feels a bit sacrilege, but I know that you could custom order any bed length as long as you went with a 6,8 or 10" centre, so I am thinking it wouldn't be the only 8" short bed or 6" long bed in the wild.
I will exit it with 2 fully intact and functioning lathes, with the only effect to each lathe being two extra holes (where the previous locator pin went). If it requires more modification than that, this option will be off the table. Wadkin did a lot of custom fitting during assembly (as an example, my understanding is a PK quadrant can not just be changed from one table to the other, as the holes don't line up), so this may not be an option anyway (I will need to see if the tail stock is custom fit to the bed, etc).
This is pretty much unheard of in Australia too, it was a bit of an Oprah Winfrey moment "You get a Wadkin RS, and you get a Wadkin RS....you all get a Wadkin RS". I've looked for about 5 years, and it seems like there are less and less coming up for sale (especially now that a lot of the patternmakers have closed), and they are reaching some lofty prices.
In summary, I am about saving Old Woodworking Machinery, and at the moment I have 2 Wadkin lathes that at this stage, I believe (with a bit of TLC), could go back into service, so I am not about to pillage from one if it means one ends up getting scrapped or becomes useless.
Cheers,
Camo
P.S. Thanks for the links, I have seen them, but I probably should have put the links up myself for others when I was posting. Here are some more links, should anyone be interested:
http://www.wadkin.com/uploads/files/...RS%20Lathe.pdf
http://www.wadkin.com/uploads/files/...e%20Manual.pdf
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16th March 2016, 02:28 PM #4Senior Member
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Hi Camo
Yes you really do seem to have a dilemma there !! I saw H's discussion on your collective haul.
I guess the question really is.....what do you want to turn ? Spindles (furniture etc) or bowls, or foundry patterns ? Not that you need to be limited by what you actually need...sometimes its all about potential capability !!
Congrats on some great machines.
Regards
John
PS when you finally do make a decision.....
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16th March 2016, 04:14 PM #5SENIOR MEMBER
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I do need to get across and post a reply on H's post, but I didn't want to until I had them all home and unloaded (call it superstition)
Probably because I am in a making room mode, I am thinking the 2 foot is expensive real estate, especially if things changed in the future, and I was forced to downsize my workshop. As you would know, it's not just the 9' of machine to consider, if I am going to do outboard turning, I need to leave room for that too. I have seen a lot more 8" RS's available than 6" (perhaps I am not looking enough), so I would hate to move on the 6", find myself forced to sell the 8" due to space and then struggle to find another 6".
I also don't want to turn the 8" into a long 6" if I am unlikely to use the extra space (diameter), as a complete newcomer, I keep thinking, couldn't I just outboard turn if it didn't fit in the gap? As I type this, I am certain this is a completely ignorant question, and people will be rolling their eyes when they read this (please be gentle).
When SWMBO first realised I was bringing home the 6" and the 8", I told her my plan was to turn one lathe backwards and have a super long bed, she was nice enough to remind me I am not a comedian.
Sounds like a bit more thought required.
I would still be interested to hear how many times forum members have found themselves doing a project that exceeds what the 6" is capable of, but the 8" on the short bed would be capable of handling, just to give me an understanding of how likely I might be to need the extra diameter (without of cause knowing what turning I might steer towards).
Cheers,
Camo
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16th March 2016, 11:26 PM #6
Yeah, Which One.
Hi Camo,
I was almost doing a think of which Lathe, A Midi or a full 1M. Lathe.
Well, I wood take the big one, & as I was going to say
" You can Turn a Small piece on a Big Lathe, but you can't Turn a Big piece on a Small Lathe ".
Both are magnificent Lathes, but I certainly wood not do any Cutting on either Lathe.
I think that wood be Sacrilege.
I dare say you wood not divulge what you had to pay per Lathe ???.Regards,
issatree.
Have Lathe, Wood Travel.
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17th March 2016, 01:04 AM #7
Yeah, Which One.
Hi Camo,
I was almost doing a think of which Lathe, A Midi or a full 1M. Lathe.
Well, I wood take the big one, & as I was going to say
" You can Turn a small piece on a Big Lathe, but you can't Turn a Big piece on a Small Lathe " .
Both are magnificent Lathes, but I certainly wood not do any Cutting on either Lathe.
I think that wood be Sacrilege.
I dare say you wood not divulge what you had to pay per Lathe ???.Regards,
issatree.
Have Lathe, Wood Travel.
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17th March 2016, 06:20 AM #8GOLD MEMBER
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Camoz,
I keep looking for and building bigger swing lathes. I have 350mm & 20 inch swing set up, a shop made 28 inch swing I bought for the price of the new 1.5 HP motor, and in slow process a 36 or 48 inch swing - 3 HP 3 phase motor, arbor, 5 speed truck transmission.
BUT, as someone wrote, "how many 30 inch salad bowls can you sell".
I would keep the big long one and build a bench over the end of the bed that you would not use.
The 6 inch one would swing 24 to 36 inches outboard without stressing the frame as long as you had a big enough spindle - 1 1/4 inch or 33 mm. I do bowls and like to have a tail center to support the out of balance blanks that are roughed out with a chain saw.
You might want to get the easiest one to get in working order running and have a go at turning. That would tell you a lot.
"Retired", has a big Wadkin along with an 11 meter long spindle lathe. You might have a chat or email with him.
Wadkin Restoration or Angus ascending.
Don't tell anyone what you paid for anything. If you sell something for more than you paid, even if it is way below market, if the buyer knows you paid less there may be bad feelings.
Oohhh, to have the problem of too many Wadkins.So much timber, so little time.
Paul
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17th March 2016, 08:34 AM #9
Having just put an extension bed on my nova I'd say go the big one
as already said " You can turn a small piece on a Big Lathe, but you can't Turn a Big piece on a Small Lathe "regards
Nick
veni, vidi, tornavi
Without wood it's just ...
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17th March 2016, 10:28 AM #10SENIOR MEMBER
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Thanks guys for all the replies and helpful input. I hear what you are all saying, the simple answer is as big as I can afford space for. I've had a chance to sleep on it, and I have come to the realisation that trading parts is just a silly idea, that this would adversely effect the current 8" lathe. There is only a finite number of Wadkin RS lathes in existance, so I shouldn't be messing around with the 8" like that, especially as Paul has suggested, I could build something at the end, so it is usable space.
As for price, well firstly I was not the only buyer, so I wouldn't mention price based on that. The reality is, anyone who has bought second hand machinery before (I have bought a lot, just ask my wife), knows that there are a lot of factors that effect "fair" or "market" price. This purchase was based on some fairly exceptional circumstances:
* the owner had sadly passed
* the family had left the landlord with the responsibility
* the landlord had new tenants moving in, in one week (and no other place to store them)
* we did not have access to power to run the machines (so had to assume the worst and hope for the best, this is a big factor in determining price)
* we were buying them all (so he didn't have to worry about dealing with 5 buyers, arranging pickup, payment, etc)
* we were there with cash, and a promise to remove 2 machines that day (he had already had a purchase fall through, so as you could imagine with the time left, that commitment went a long way in making the deal)
* the guy knew there would be limited buyers willing to buy all of them
* the guy runs a business as well as being a landlord (so to him, it wasn't worth his time)
* this wasn't anyone's first rodeo (seller and buyers), the seller had done his research and knew what he could get for them (if he had the time to sell them one by one), he also knew the effort required and all the other factors involved
So in answer to a question of what did I pay, the answer would be "fair market price". I guess what I am saying, is if someone wanted to pay what I paid, they will be searching a long time to find the same conditions. I am not sure if I will fully restore it first, but I will at least get it to a point that it can be run to confirm it's condition (that alone would have made a huge difference had we been able to do that). With all that said, it wasn't an "Angus" deal (oh to be just given a Wadkin RS)
cheers,
Camo
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17th March 2016, 11:46 AM #11Senior Member
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Camo
Just something to consider regarding the size of the lathes.....
When you're turning anything that is unbalanced, the mass of the lathe (given that no separate lathe bench is required for an RS) will directly effect the safety of your turning activities. You do not want your lathe hopping about the workshop with you chasing it, skew in hand.
The questions to date, have focused on diameter and length, but I would suggest you consider issue of balance and mass. Obviously the RS8 takes the prize in this arena...assuming of course that you can find a project that requires a commensurate amount of machine mass. The RS6 starts at 625kg....I'd guess my old hyco/woodfast at around 100kg including bench.....
With respect to reconfiguring either lathe, I'd suggest you leave them as is, and make the choice between RS6 and RS8 (or both). Wadkin tended to design their kit with a fair swag of experience behind them, and each was designed for a purpose.
Regards
John
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17th March 2016, 03:33 PM #12SENIOR MEMBER
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Hey John,
As you say they are both heavy masses of a machine, the 6" is 625kg and the 8" is 675kg, so they are both fairly close in weight all things considered (well the difference is 1/2 the weight of your old hyco/woodfast I suppose), they are both the same head casting, so it's just the extra weight of the 2 foot of bed minus the reduction in the leg size on the 8". I am definitely back to choosing the 6" or the 8" without playing tetras with either, so I will just be choosing one now.
I am certainly not complaining about the opportunity to choose, and it's not like I need to make the decision tomorrow.
Cheers,
Camo
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18th March 2016, 08:37 AM #13Senior Member
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Camo,
I like your analogy of Workshop Tetras™, and choosing between the two is a great problem to have
Regards,
John
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18th March 2016, 07:35 PM #14
Cam, These lathes have a fabricated not cast rear leg.
It would be easy to bend and weld up a shorter one.
Or fab one from angle etc.
A spacer could be water jet cut for the tailstock.
Longer stems on the tool rests and they should be ok with your existinging banjos.
Just drop the bed to the lower bolt holes and it is all reversible.
I have a vague idea for a more Wadkin with a W rear leg. Make it more personalised, get one up on Jack
H.Jimcracks for the rich and/or wealthy. (aka GKB '88)
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19th March 2016, 10:06 AM #15SENIOR MEMBER
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