Thread: Wedge tool

? whats a wedge tool

Originally Posted by Gensol

Does anybody use a wedge tool and for what purpose. I was thinking it might be good for tidying up the curved transition area inside a vessel where the gouge won't reach.

If you mean one of these...

Hamlet Wedge Tool 1/2"

...then I can't see how it would do a better job than a gouge inside a vessel.

Unless you are referring to something else, it would be used as a scraper on the inside. However, there are better articulated scraper tipped tools for reaching more difficult areas inside than that.

I'm also not sure what you mean about a gouge not reaching an inside area that the 'wedge tool' can.

Originally Posted by NeilS

If you mean one of these...

Hamlet Wedge Tool 1/2"

...then I can't see how it would do a better job than a gouge inside a vessel.

Unless you are referring to something else, it would be used as a scraper on the inside. However, there are better articulated scraper tipped tools for reaching more difficult areas inside than that.

I'm also not sure what you mean about a gouge not reaching an inside area that the 'wedge tool' can.

Hmm , yes the more I know here, the more I dont

Originally Posted by NeilS

If you mean one of these...

Hamlet Wedge Tool 1/2"

...then I can't see how it would do a better job than a gouge inside a vessel.

This is exactly the tool I mean. I have trouble with my bowl gouge negotiating tight curves at the bottom inside a vessel. I have a small radius round-nose scraper but I can't reach far enough with it and have actually bent the tang due to a catch by over-reaching. Since the wedge tool has a much sturdier profile, I thought it might actually be a better option.

I would appreciate the thoughts of those with more experience.

Originally Posted by Gensol

This is exactly the tool I mean. I have trouble with my bowl gouge negotiating tight curves at the bottom inside a vessel. I have a small radius round-nose scraper but I can't reach far enough with it and have actually bent the tang due to a catch by over-reaching. Since the wedge tool has a much sturdier profile, I thought it might actually be a better option.

I would appreciate the thoughts of those with more experience.

Ok now I understand, forgive me for being a bit thick.
I dont own a wedge tool and havent used one for that matter. The simplest tool to make for getting into tight spots would be a Oland tool. Named after the inventor Rude Oland, see here Wood Turning Tools: Making the Oland Tool

There are several possible solutions here, and maybe I will just stick what works for me and let others chime in. I have several scrapers in both HSS and Carbide all on long shafts to very long shafts with some degree of orientation at the business end and a couple have fairly high degree of movement or articulation. The actually scrapers vary in size and radii, and I will at times grind them to suit the curve I'm doing. Add to that, I have 1/2 dozen or so dedicated hollowing tools, some homemade and a couple well known brands. The hollowers give me more flexibility during hollowing and depending on my proficiency a better finish. I rarely use gouges internally, preferring the hollowing tools instead.
Funny enough I dont have very many images of all this gear, will get that organised and put them up later

Heres what I use.

Scrapers
20mm hardened shaft 300 long to two different grinds 90' and 30' shaft can be extended or withdrawn into the handle. There a dual boring/hollowing and scraper handle that is for deep hollowing etc it can be extended to 400-450mm, again a hard shaft to lessen the vibration

Hollowers
All the shielded type, propriety ones are Woodcut and Rolly Munro. The Munro Wunderkut works best on a small setting and the Woodcut is great for mass removal. The others are my DIY made out of carbide cutters from CNC metal turning lathes

Oland
Named after the inventor, he has passed on, but I believe his wife still turns using them. A simple but very effective tool, easily and cheap to make All you need is some sort of shaft and a standard piece of HSS steel be it round or square, ground up to what ever shape your require.

With these I can get anywhere on any vessel, all the shafts are either linear bearing rods or pneumatic cylinder rod, hard chromed or surface hardened in high tensile steel. Normally these pieces are thrown away as they wear. But perfect for what we need.

If you have bent the tang on that scraper I would stop using it as it may well break on another catch. That could be very dangerous. I've seen video of roughing out gouges breaking at the tang and they cause damage, sometimes to the turner.

Thanks Jonzjob. I have already junked it.

Wow. That is some arsenal you have there!
I hope to get a simpler solution to my problem, but thanks for sharing.

Originally Posted by Gensol

....might be good for tidying up the curved transition area inside a vessel where the gouge won't reach.

I presume you are referring to working inside hollow forms... there are two 'transition' areas; (1) from the sides down into the bottom and (2) from the sides up under the shoulder.

The (1) transition can usually be done with just bowl gouges with different bevel angles. I use a 65° bevel for the cut across the bottom and use a reverse cut to smooth out the transition up into the sides. It is a half cut/half scrape. Here is a short 50sec video I made while doing that reverse cut. This is in an endgrain piece left with an open form so that you can see what I'm doing, but the same when done blind...

End grain hollowing with bowl gouge and Ellsworth grind - YouTube

Here is a photo of the inside of that piece... with hardly a trace of the inside bottom centre point...

Hollowed endgrain with bowl gouge.jpg

I do a lot of hollowing out with the bowl gouge before moving on to the specialty tools for the more difficult to reach places. In the next short 20sec video I'm doing some initial work up under the shoulder with the bowl gouge...

Hollowing 101 with bowl gouge - YouTube

If the opening is smaller I eventually move onto the same Woodcut and Rolly Munro hollowers, as used by Hughie, for the (2) transitions.

The best scraper I've found for inside work is the Woodcut Pro-Forme scraper head. They fit on their hollowing bars and can be maneuvered into any position for a shear scrape inside.

Heh. I've had one all along and didn't know it! Well... not by that name anyway. Mine was given to me along with a name that's not suitable for a 'family forum.'

My understanding is that they were introduced as a friendlier alternative to the skew chisel for beads and coves on spindle turning. As such it works... imho not particularly well but it is almost impossible to get a catch with it.

I did try using it much as you propose, as a rounded scraper with a long overhang into the depths of small hollow forms where I thought it's small diameter might give it an advantage.

Didn't work for me.

The main disadvantage (imo) being that you can't tell by feel how far you've rolled it over, until too late and it's slicing grooves rather than taking shavings. To use it properly you need visual feedback... which is exactly what I didn't have where I wanted to use it. So it's now one of the many tools I have relegated to 'dressing up the top shelf.'

Originally Posted by Gensol

Wow. That is some arsenal you have there!
I hope to get a simpler solution to my problem, but thanks for sharing.

What I have built up over time, all you really need perhaps is just a decent scraper. Especially coming up under the lip or rim of the bowl, if that doesnt work, maybe a smallish headed internal inertia sander.
If you stick to open bowls while you perfect your technique and sort out a few different grinds, ie taking the heel off the gouge. What I have done is grind one of my gouges at 50-55' ish that I use to sweep across the bottom. It isnt always in action and you may find that over time you will have several tools like this.
Scraping, sanding doesnt really improve your technique but it does give you the satisfaction of a finished piece while you sort out technique issues, tools, grind etc.
There is nothing more frustrating than having a pile of elegant firewood and if its any consolation we have all been there and on occasion end back there

Thanks Andy for sharing your experience with the wedge tool. There must be a reason it's not often used and what you say makes sense. I will keep it in mind and practice on some firewood.

Originally Posted by hughie

If you stick to open bowls while you perfect your technique and sort out a few different grinds, ie taking the heel off the gouge. What I have done is grind one of my gouges at 50-55' ish that I use to sweep across the bottom. It isn't always in action and you may find that over time you will have several tools like this.

Hughie, from my lesser experience with hollow forms, I'm in agreement with much of what you are saying there. You turn more hollow forms than most of us on this forum, so good advice from hard won experience!

I know some want to start out turning trophy hollow pieces for the appreciation of their cheer squad before having acquired a firm grounding in the basics. Gensol, I'm not assuming that applies to you. For those that does apply to my advice is to 'cheat' by turn two bowls, glue them together lip to lip and true off the outside and if necessary add some decoration around the join line. The cheer squad won't know any difference and will be astounded at your skills.

My own journey with hollow forms took the slow road and I didn't attempted my first fully closed form until sometime well after my first 500 bowls. By that time I could turn with my eyes closed, which in effect you are doing when you are hollow turning.

I also crept up slowly on fully closed forms by first undercutting the rims on bowls that I wanted to finish that way...

103b6.jpg
103c1.jpg

... then progressively closing them in...

Sycamore 10in.JPG IMG_2986.JPG
PIC00128.JPG Sycamore 9.5in x 6in h.JPG

then onto smaller more fully closed forms...

PIC00131.JPG Silver Birch - 6in diam - cropped.jpg

that became larger over time, with some up around 12" high...

. .
Birch - 11 x 9.25in.JPG Robins jar.JPG
. Holly & BW 11 x 6in sm.jpg .. Holly 11in h x 5in w.JPG

I only finish the inside to the same standard as the outside down to a finger reach. For forms with small openings I don't take the finish below that much beyond off-the-tool. For slightly more open forms that can be peered into I do take them to slightly better visual standard with sanding to finer grits.

I like my hollow forms to be lighter to hold than visually expected. The flow of external form is the key feature.

If I turn a piece of wood into two bowls I get twice the price. If I turn that piece of wood into a full hollow form I might get three times the price, but with four times the effort. I readily get the three fold price at the gallery, but would struggle at four times. I find that there is more aesthetic satisfaction than economic return in doing them.

What I would call a bowl with a closed top is a form that requires less wood and sells well...

IMG_2803.JPG
Blackwood - 6.5 x 3in.jpg
IMG_2995.JPG

Originally Posted by hughie

There is nothing more frustrating than having a pile of elegant firewood and if its any consolation we have all been there and on occasion end back there

Yes, I've seen the best 'back there' on occasions!