Thread: 9 Box prototypes WIP - from palings.

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Hi Graeme, they are Bessey DuoKlamps and I love 'em! Quick action (multiple squeezes of the handle to close the jaws). Nothing like the pressure of bar clamps, but that's not always needed......

Thanks FF

They intrigued me - look like a cross between the Bessey K Bodies and Quick Grips, but much more affordable than K bodies (I googled) and quick action.

I love my Quick Grip mini's for the same reason, but everyone else chooses to hate them - cannot get a million K's of pressure, etc.
https://www.bunnings.com.au/irwin-qu...p-set_p5860055


Cheers

Graeme

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

I'm considering a plan to do a similar thing maybe for a dining table for us, but I would quite possibly have palings on both sides of the MDF core (and quite probably perpendicular to each other).

Originally Posted by GraemeCook

would you actually need the MDF in this instance?
The MDF would add a lot of weight and risk of it turning to wheat bix if it ever gets wet.

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

The MDF would be completely captured so getting wet won't happen. It gives a nice flat surface to stick the palings to. Anyway, it's just a thought bubble at the moment - a project for Ron.

Hi Brett

you would do better to either stack laminate the palings to form the table top or if you really want to go with an MDF (or particle board) core, to bring the palings down to around 3mm before gluing them on. At 3mm, which will be less after final flattening and sanding, the glued on palings will behave like a veneer.

If you go with a stack lamination, I suggest
1. using wedges for side to side pressure
2. a vacuum bag for vertical pressure
3. epoxy adhesive -- perhaps WestSystems #105 with the #206 hardener. But keeping the assembly above 16°C while the epoxy cures might be a challenge in your climate for some of the year. (the #205 hardener, which will continue to cure down to 4°C, at might be too restrictive in terms of open time.)

Tried some masking tape before I brushed on some water based PU. It worked very well but as I suspected it pulled up splinters when removed (no real big deal).

4. Masking tape.JPG

My initial concern was that the tape would still let PU get under due to wicking because there are plenty of little grooves in this timber, but no problem.

However, I may move away from using PolyU on the inside, even though it is probably the most durable. In the next post I will show the Home Made WOP applied.

Last night I finished Box A (sans base, because I will do all of those together from the ply). Technically this box is a fail because the 4 palings that make up the sides have been put on individually (rather than making a panel like I did with the 3 paling end faces). What has happened is that the palings are not flush with each other, sometimes by a long way. Presumably this is due to different internal stress in the different timbers. This results in little ledges (up to 4mm wide) which feel terrible (and sharp!). However, this prototype was always going to end up replacing my current kindling box for the fireplace. Indeed, that is the primary intended purpose of this box, but hey, a punter could use it for whatever they like.

It was also a very slow assembly (although it was first time through). The end faces lost about 1mm in thickness because after gluing up I ran the panel through the thicky to flush everything up (worked very well). I can't do that with a four paling panel because my Thicky combo is only up to 310mm.

So one solution is to alter the design so that there are gaps of about 20mm between the side palings (like the pic I first showed in post #1). I think will actually look quite good. A second solution is to glue up a four paling panel and run it through a thicky that will take the width - in a production scenario take several panels to put through).

HMWOP (Her Majesty's WOP)
The inside of this box was brushed on PolyU which is quick enough to do when the parts are not assembled, but requires masking the parts where glue is to be applied. The outside was done with my Home Made WOP that I made up for my son's Blackwood table. That was a modification of NCArcher's recipe, and my final blend was 20% Satin, 30% Gloss PU, 25% each BLO and turps. When applied to these mummy-dust-dry palings it is touch dry almost immediately after the 1st coat! I was able to put on 3 coats in about 30 minutes, and will do another couple today.

5. Box A - first.JPG

(There is no base attached yet)

From now on I think I will just assemble them and use HMWOP (or oil if I choose) inside and out. It will be significantly faster, and no masking required.

Summary of Box A
What was good:
Nice and square, no warping, sits flat on the bench (Box B does NOT! )
HMWOP finish works nicely
Laminated end panels work well (but wouldn't hurt to be a little thicker, 1-2mm)

Not so good:
Slooooww assembly
side palings out of whack causing ledges

Today I made Box I, but I don't have a pic just yet as it was still drying by stumps this evening. There was no glue used in this one (apart from the front panel which is like a larger version of the end panels of Box A). That meant that after I had assembled it (screwing) I was able to disassemble it partly for wopping. Now WOP is supposed to mean Wipe ON Poly, but if fact I have taken to using it as Wipe OFF Poly, so no acronym change needed

I shall elucidate. These old palings are insanely dry as I have stated before. Many of them also have numerous fine cracks in them. I have come to the conclusion that wiping on the finish (be it Oil or WOP) just doesn't satisfy their thirst! That may be great for cabinet timbers that have not had a tough life in the sun and elements for 20 years. Furthermore, it is problematic to get into corners of either 2 intersecting planes or 3, and countersunk screw holes require too much special attention as well.

So when I was getting ready to wop Box "I", I also got out a 1" brush for getting into the difficult bits. Well bugger me, the timber was GUZZLING the WOP from the brush! In some cases I could put it on and it would be touch dry in just a few minutes (this is oil based PolyU in the WOP, not water based). In one particular place it was actually bubbling slightly as the air was replaced by WOP! "Rightio", sez I, "I'll just brush it on everywhere, and cloth it off like I do with Danish Oil. It'll still be WOP" And quite frankly, what is the difference between this HM-WOP and Danish Oil? Probably just a variation in the ingredients, and slightly different proportions, but essentially a very similar thing I suspect. Where I'm using Boiled Linseed Oil, Danish uses Tung. I might even fool around using Tung at some stage (although there must be a reason why LO is exclusively used on cricket bats)

So from now on, with palings, I'll be using WOP, not WOP.

Actually, it's prolly more accurate to call it BOWOP (Brush On Wipe Off Poly). Now this may sound strangely musical to some old rockers, but it is not to be confused with Doo-wop, or even Miles Davis' version Doo Bop. So the full acronym is technically HM-BOWOP.

I suspect that this technique will be quicker overall too: even though clothing on very quick and accurate to cover a given area - much quicker than brushing on - the number of coats required will probably drop from 5 or 6 to just 2.

I am thinking that you need some sort of sealer coat before you apply the finishing coats. For my smaller turned pieces I have used the sanding sealer from Ubeaut but I am thinking that this might not be enough for what you are trying to achieve on this recycled wood. It might be better to prepare some shellac and thin this out a little more than usual. What I have done in the past was prepare my shellac mixture and at the time of application cut it even further before applying. The mixture could have been at the ratio of 10 parts metho to 1 part shellac.

Please Brett don't roll your eyes as this is certainly not as precise your usual work methods.

The other option would be to use a sanding sealer from one of the finishing companies which could also contain some sort of grain filing particles in their sealers.

Christos I must say that I've never really gotten hold of the sanding sealer concept. As I understand it, the diluted shellac seals the timber - so how does the oil get in to nourish the timber? Won't it just sit on top of the shellac? And if it does allow the oil through then surely it hasn't sealed it? All just seems counter-intuitive, so I must be missing something.....

Perhaps FF you could use Livos floor or deck oil. I'm using Kunos for everything.... Its marvellous.

I'm pretty sure that this is the type of sanding sealer Christos is recommending -
https://www.bunnings.com.au/feast-wa...ealer_p1564778
This type is designed to fill the grain of coarse grained timbers, or minor surface cracks such as you are dealing with. In my experience stains and PU and oil finishes are no problem over shellac or any other commercial sanding sealer as these products do not actually 'seal' the timber, they're designed to raise the grain, and once sanded back, create a super smooth finish.

Originally Posted by woodPixel

Perhaps FF you could use Livos floor or deck oil. I'm using Kunos for everything.... Its marvellous.

Box C is done with Livos Countertop Oil - two coats seemed to do it. They were smaller bits of quite stable timber (deliberately selected because they were to be small). The LCO was left over from the Blackwood table project. I also have a bottle of Kunos which is as yet untried.

I am VERY keen to get my hands on some Osmo PolyX Raw (you might like that too Ev - Thor's Hammer in Canberra have it). At Kyneton I saw a benchtop in American Ash that has OPR on it and it looked like raw timber - REALLY good. Oils tends to reduce the contrast between the timbers, and within some of them - that's ok sometimes, but there are many times when I like the timber the way it is.

Originally Posted by aldav

This type is designed to fill the grain of coarse grained timbers, or minor surface cracks such as you are dealing with.

Thanks Dave. This is why I suspect that sanding sealer won't be a lot of help with these palings. They are not minor cracks - they are anything up to Grand Canyons! If these same cracks were present in a cabinet timber then that piece would be rejected, but with recycled timber - particularly that which has been as exposed as it possibly can be to the elements for 20 years - it is what you get. There are a few pieces that are not cracked and looking to guzzle any liquid....a very few.

Box I is finished, and just waiting for some full sun to take a pic. I've also cut the bases for A,B,C and in the process of fitting them.

Box I finished (BOWOP)

6. Box I - 1.JPG .... 7. Box I - 2.JPG


Box C yet to trim base (Livos Countertop Oil)

9. Box C - 1.JPG


There can obviously be multiple purposes, so I'm keen to you versions, but I made them with specific purposes (for me) in mind. What is it?

Maybe Brett should get himself half a 20 litre drum (cut in half) and soak his boxes for an our or so before starting with the wipe off?

There'd be no liquid left in the drum!

BTW Ian, I think I've come to the conclusion that with <=12mm palings a Bradder would be too risky for splitting. Even drilling these with a 2.5mm drill has resulted in a few breakouts. With thicker material it would be ok - I have some paling furniture here that I bought around 20 years ago that are largely held together with brads. They are thicker though, and I suspect were nowhere near as old and brittle when they were used. (just had a look and they are in much better condition and mostly meatier, suggesting they had been exposed for considerably less time)