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  1. #1
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    Default beginner needs advice re finishing

    Hi all I am brand new to the forum and looking for some help and you would seem to be the right people. Some background I am recently retired and looking to do some furniture restoration at a leisurely pace. I have some background, my father french polished as a hobby and pardon the pun but some of it seems to have rubbed off. He would apply up to a dozen coats of shellac using wet and dry in between and then finishing spirit at the end. This created a wonderfull finish to look at but not very usable. I have jars and jars of pre measured shellac flakes and bottles of I think distilled metho just waiting to be mixed. I have a number already mixed that maybe up to 15 years old. I am quite capable when it comes to the stripping and repair I have built a number of pieces over the years all pretty simple desks tables and the like. I have been using shellac for colour and filling and then a brush on polyurethane mirror tone product and finishing this with steel wool and danish wax. This has been working ok and giving a reasonably durable surface. I am about to start renovating some silky oak pieces and would like to know how best to finish then. Imagine starting with a freshly sanded clean piece of SO How would you choose to finish from this point? I am hoping to adopt a new technique from the collected wisdom here. What would be the best products where to buy them and how to use them. I am in Brisbane. More than happy to mix up SECRET formulas if this is best. Any advice would be much appreciated thanks

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  3. #2
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    Default

    Hi Mark,

    You may get a lot of varied responses as lots of us have our favourites and regard what we do as "the only way". I recommend that you get yourself a copy of The Polishers handbook by Neil Ellis, uBeaut products and the owner of these forums. (I have no affiliation of any kind but do like the book).

    In reality one can achieve a great result with different methods and which one you use depends on what you want in a finish. One factor that you may wish to consider if you are restoring antiques is that their value is reduced, sometimes to $zero, by stripping and refinishing them. Age and patina are essential to value in antique items. most antiques we are likely to find were originally finished with shellac - not orange flake shellac but one of the button shellacs, which have a lot more wax in them. Once the shellac has aged and had a few good coats of wax it is remarkable resilient to spills etc.

    English antique items from the 1700s were often oil finished - for table tops etc., becaus eit made them more resilient than the previous wax finishes, but we don't see many of those items in Brisbane.

    I restore items when I have to and will repair a finish only if it has been destroyed. When I do so i use brown button shellac and French Polish with the rubber. As I said, after a good wax it stands up to general use.

    For new items I often use uBeaut's Hard Shellac as it is much tougher and more resilient. Below is a photograph of a Huon Pine jewellery box I made for my daughter four or five year ago - finished with Hard Shellac. It has survived my young daughter's use very well.

    Jewellery box Huon Pine with Hard Shellac b.JPG

    There are some very dedicated devotees of other finishes on these forums - Hard Burnishing Oil in particular. I'll leave it to them to respond.

    I hope these comments help.

    David

    PS According to Neil Ellis made-up shellac does not last and old solutions should not be used as a final finish - though can be highly diluted and used a good sanding sealer.

  4. #3
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    Thanks so much David for your thoughts and ideas. Some of the pieces I intend to restore are painted with what would appear to be lead based paint, so am not really trying to restore an antique as per say. I have a polishing handbook of my father's from the 1940's, so probably time for an update!

    Thanks again

    Mark

  5. #4
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    Hi Mark,

    I highly recommend Bob Flexner’s book ‘Flexner on Finishing’. It describes the finishes in detail, what they are, when best to use them and, importantly, debunks many cherished myths that one finds repeated all over the Net.

    Like Xanthorrhaoeas I’m a fan of Neil’s Hard Shellac. Not a fan of polyurine as it tends to yellow too much (the oil-based versions, anyway). Agree 100% that old mixes of shellac should be binned. It isn’t expensive to buy or make up fresh. The dry flakes seem to last for years.

    I also like and use pre-catalysed lacquer (sprayed) - dries just about instantly. I wouldn’t use this on an antique, though.

    if you fancy trying an oil finish these are usually easy to apply. I’d recommend PolyX, Tru-Oil and just plain boiled linseed oil. Lots of good reports on Livos Kunos oil, too, although haven’t tried it yet.

    There are plenty of YouTube videos on finishing. Look for reputable finishing experts such as Charles Neil, Peter Gedrys, Bob Flexner etc.

    Lead-based paint? Nasty stuff

    Good luck with the new hobby, Mark. Please show us some pics when you have a finished project - we LOVE pictures.

    Brian

  6. #5
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    Hi Brian I have jumped in and ordered the polishers hand book can hardly wait for it to arrive. I have been digging through some of my dads old stuff and found two bear bristle mop brushes and some skarsden scrapers. My skill with shellac is not great but I have made and used rubbers in the past. I would hate someone to be reading this out of context. What I am really interested in is what to do after the shellac. In the past I had just used finishing spirit like dad which produced a high gloss surface but inclined to show every mark and finger print. I have never used wax or oil but would love to be able to achieve a result like David did in the above picture. What do I do after the shellac? Any tips would be much appreciated. Im hoping the book will have many answers. I live in Brisbane and I see Carbetec stock quite a few Ubeaut products so hopefully I can get started soon Maybe I will post a before photo if I can work out how. Im still playing vinyl records in the workshop. My 12 year old son should be able to help. I think it maybe some time before I have an after photo but Im sure Ill be asking many questions along the way. Thanks Brian

  7. #6
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    Hi Mark and welcome to the storehouse of all knowledge regarding wood working and it's ancillary crafts.

    I see David has mentioned Hard Burnishing Oil (HBO) and I guess I'm the main protagonist for its use.
    Hard burnishing Oil is essentially Tung Oil with some additives that allow the oil to polymerise in the wood leaving a great looking finish. The other good thing about the HBO is that it is very resistant to heat, cold, spillages (including Red wine) and cleaners such as Spray and wipe.

    The process is straight forward, but does require the use of progressively higher grits on a Random Orbital Sander (ROS) I usually start at about 100g then move progressively up through the grits, 'til I end up at a point where I wish to finish.

    Usually that would be 4000g It doesn't take a lot of time, but gives a durable finish, easily cleaned and very resilient. I have items which I finished over ten years ago and they still look great.

    IMG_0025.jpg 10518992_10204862821192923_1552533414877172130_n.jpgP1010047 (2).jpg
    These are some examples of the finish you obtain. All this and a stain resistant, washable, oil finish.

    If you want more info, you can send me a Personal Message and I will respond.

    Regards,

    Rob

  8. #7
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    Default

    Hi Mark,

    I think any very high gloss finish will show marks and fingerprints. Waxing with a good polish will help. I use Liberon Black Bison wax but there are plenty of others.

    Much depends on the level of gloss you are trying to achieve. More modern pieces seem to have a semi-gloss or satin finish. With shellac this can be achieved by ‘rubbing out’ the gloss using very fine steel wool and wax, working in the direction of the grain.

    Sometimes I use Rustin’s 0000+ steel wool for this (finer than 0000) but more recently I’ve switched to 3M grey abrasive pads with wax. Much the same degree of ‘cut’ but the pad stays intact and leaves no bits of steel wool in the surface.

    Either way I leave the shellac to harden for two weeks before attacking it.

    Finishing legend Charles Neil has around 100 videos on YouTube at https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=...Xcy5aTJEJw4G12 and Bob Flexner has a finishing blog at https://www.popularwoodworking.com/c...inishing-blog/

    Hope this helps,

    Brian

  9. #8
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    Thanks Brian Looks like Ill spend as much time on youtube as in the shed. Where abouts do you buy your products? particularly the abrasive pads you make reference to. I have a Milwaukee ROS which is good for sanding the timber in the prep stage. Is there such an animal for the polishing stage? I have also noted some reference to not using caustic based paint strippers. I have always used kiwi strip what would be the alternative and does it really make a difference? Just so I understand the technique Sand and prep then apply shellac then use a wax of some sort with the fine steel wool or pads to create the finished surface. Sorry So many questions regards Mark

  10. #9
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    Default

    Hi Mark,

    The grey Scotch Brite pads can found on eBay, at one or the other of Autobarn/SuperCheap Autos, at Timbecon and at Bunnings. Auto repair suppliers also usually have these. Bunnings stock the Norton brand rather than 3M - perhaps some of the others do too.

    I make boxes, Mark, so I don’t use a ROS much, I use a scraper instead. Just personal preference. I polish and sand by hand when it comes to finishing as my pieces are only about as big as a shoe box. I’m sure someone else will chip in with information more relevant to restorations.

    For the polishing process, try watching the Peter Gedrys YouTube video - something like “Peter Gedrys Finishing Workshop”. He explains it all very well.

    Good luck!

    Brian

  11. #10
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    Default Final wax

    Hi Mark,

    Yes, the non-caustic paint strippers are easier on the user and on the timber and less likely to leave a residue that affects the final finish.

    Above, Brian (Homey) mentions scrapers. I presume that he means card scrapers rather than the paint-removal type. There is a bit of a knack to using card scrapers, and to getting the cutting edge on them, but they do leave a superb finish. That is because they cut the wood fibres off cleanly rather than furring it over as sanding does. Having said that, the Huon Pine box I showed above was hand sanded to 1000 or 1200 grit before French Polishing (FP) with the Hard Shellac and, although that breaks some people's rules about finishing, I think it works pretty well. FP is not actually difficult, it just takes time. The secret is to use very well diluted shellac and lots of very fine coats, as well as to cut back every 3-4 coats with the 1000 or 1200 grit wet and dry or equivalent. An old FP handbook that I have from around 1890 notes that it is best to FP when it is warm. However, it was written in the UK and they defined warm as 15 degrees C! That means that polishing right through our winter is OK. In terms of time after polishing and before waxing I have found it depends to some extent whether you want to cut the gloss back or not. I make boxes to hold my wife's artworks and I do not always get much lead time before they have to go to the gallery. I make sure that I seal the timber but do not work up a high gloss and then wax straight away with ubeaut's Traditional Wax. I have also used the Black Bison and it is good. Just be sure not to use a straight beeswax. Although they are heavily promoted (natural etc. etc.) I believe beeswax is unsuitable as it stays sticky for ever and attracts/catches dust, dirt and fingerprints. A good hard wax doesn't do that.

    Horizontal scroll box, closed, grey background.jpgVertical scroll box, closed, grey background.jpg Two strangely shaped boxes made out of (legally felled) spalted Grey Mangrove that I made to house artist's book scroll artworks on Moreton Bay wildlife and landscapes made by my wife. These were French polished with uBeaut White Shellac then waxed straight away as they had to go to the gallery the next day. The hard wax, rubbed back after about 10 minutes, leaves a serviceable finish and surface.

    David

  12. #11
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    Apologies, Mark. David is spot on - I was thinking card scrapers not paint scrapers. +1 for avoiding beeswax too.

    I’m wary about finishing ‘rules’ too. By all means listen to what experienced people have to say, but in the end you just find what works best for you.

    Brian

  13. #12
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    Thanks guys,

    Just to be sure, after I have a sufficient build of shellac and sanding in between coats etc, the final finish is achieved using one of the waxes mentioned but applied with say 0000 steel wool? Then buffed with soft cloth. I am trying for a soft subtle finish rather than a high gloss but something robust enough for a desk top. I have been watching Charles Neil but of course many products he refers to are from the US.

    I went to carbatec but was somewhat disappointed, their range of products for polishing etc was a little small but I have a line on an abrasive supplier called the Sandpaper Man. They mostly sell on line but are happy for me to drop in for a look at what they have, so will do this next week.

    I have added some before photos of a silky oak desk I am about to start on. It is so heavy I am making up some dollies so I can move it about. I need to do the sanding outside as I don't have any way of dealing with the dust which doesn't go so well with the vinyl records. I'm thinking of starting with a heat gun then paint remover and finally sanding, then shellac. I will post progress photos, but don't hold your breath!

    Regards

    Mark

    IMG_4398.JPGIMG_4397.JPGIMG_4396.JPGIMG_4395.JPG

  14. #13
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    Default Final cut and polish

    Good Morning Mark,

    There are different ways that people do things. For the mangrove boxes above I stopped polishing before a high gloss had been created, so I didn't need to cut back before waxing. The most serviceable finish for the top of the desk would be to polish to a good gloss level, let it set for a while (from memory Neil Ellis says the Hard Shellac sets in about 3 weeks) then cut it back with either 0000 steel wool or 1000 grit wet and dry paper. The paper is or one of the fancy new mesh pads are better than the steel wool as the latter leaves small broken off fragments of steel lying around. If using the paper you can, if you wish, use a lubricant such as some mineral turps to make it easier. Note that the more expensive 'natural' or wood turps smells lovely (at least to me) but the fumes are far more damaging for your health than mineral turps. Good ventilation is needed anyway.

    I don''t cut back using the steel wool and wax together, but some people do. I find it better to knock back the gloss level with 1000 grit then wax using a cloth, let the wax dry then buff off with a cloth or piece of terry towelling. It will give you good exercise.

    The sides do not need to be as highly polished as the top. Just seal them well but stop before you reach a high gloss, let the shellac set then wax as above. That's how I would do it anyway.

    There isn't much fiddly detail on the desk but, where there is you can use a lacquer brush made of very fine natural hair (like Badger hair) to get the polish on (still very dilute coats). A good brush doesn't leave hairs in the work, though they do tend to do so as they age, but the hairs clean off when you rub back (and that's where steel wool beats the papers because it fits into the crevices enough).

    Never use steel wool on bare timber. Fragments break off in the wood fibres and then rust and create dark spots under your finish.

    Another way to cut and polish in one go is to use one of the uBeaut products that is a wax with very fine Tripoli powder abrasive in it. It is called EEE Ultrashine. I use it on items on the lathe but it is also great for cleaning old furniture where the finish is undamaged but has become dull or grimy.

    Have fun.

    The sandman is an excellent supplier. I but most of my papers from them. uBeaut products can be ordered online from CWS and other suppliers so you can get the whole range delivered to your door (as I said above, I am not affiliated in any way, just a happy user of the services and products).

    David

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