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  1. #16
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    May 2003
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    Central Coast, NSW
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    Hey TC, are you still with us. Able to give an update on this project
    Cheers
    Arron
    Apologies for unnoticed autocomplete errors.

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  3. #17
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    Mar 2010
    Location
    Adelaide, South Australia
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    19

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    Hi Arron,

    I am still here but don't have much to add... and interest/commentary seemed to fall off so I stopped adding to the thread.
    My 3 best external samples have been sitting out in the weather facing east for almost a year and the results are good.
    They look (visually) exactly the same as they did on day 1 but there's no char rub off at all anymore, wet or dry, which is a great outcome.
    Unfortunately however when they are wet the water doesn't bead the way it used to.... I would assume the Tung Oil has broken down in some way.
    For me that probably means I won't proceed with using them externally... I want something I don't need to maintain.

    My internal samples (mostly pine) still look great and the various clear coats I used have all held up well with no char rub off so I'm totally confident to use the technique internally.

    Happy to answer any other questions anyone might have.

    TC

  4. #18
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    May 2003
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    Central Coast, NSW
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    Ok, thanks.

    I’m new at this but will be building a house in a year or two and may use some Sugi ban in limited spots, but I don’t want anything high maintenance.

    I would like to get your thoughts, though, on whether the focus on char runoff and oil is misplaced. I understood what the old-time Japanese were doing was producing a surface that didn’t need any finish. Any finish - including oiling. If it’s dependent on oiling, then won’t there be a lot of recoating?

    Also, I wonder whether they would have been concerned about char ruboff. Why do you need to touch the external surface anyway? Obviously it’s not something you might want around a doorway, but if you know it’s there then the ruboff is relatively easy to manage, I’d imagine?

    Or from another angle, aren’t ocassional black hands a small price to pay for a beautiful and maintenance free surface?

    Just wondering
    Arron
    Apologies for unnoticed autocomplete errors.

  5. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Adelaide, South Australia
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    Hi Arron, Good comments and I'm glad to have someone to chat without about it.

    My interest in SSB is similar to yours... I wanted a low maintenance finish that I could do myself... the fact that it's black and looks awesome was a huge added bonus.

    I share your concerns about re-coating and that's why I've done so much testing. I've found maybe 50 different online conversation threads, youtube videos etc and they all recommend oiling it at the end but no one says why and the techniques and types of oil all vary. The best resource I found was a conversation thread on permies where people mentioned oiling for either durability or colour fastness.

    For me personally char rub is an issue because I have it as cladding that returns into an outdoor terrace that has a bench seat so you're leaning on it... and I also have it returning through a window as an internal cladding.
    But I've discovered that oiled or not, the char rub/run off stops after a few days in the rain or a couple of soaks with a hose so I'm less concerned about that now.

    For what it's worth I think the main reason for oiling is that when you take a softwood timber and do a heavy char then wire brush it (which is what most people do) you end up with a zebra type finish where you see both charred and un-charred grain... the un-charred grain is not protected in any way from moisture or UV and so will be a source of rot or fading, hence you oil it (and re-oil it year after year). If you do a heavy char and don't do a hardcore wire brush (IE the gatored look that's like leather) then there's probably no need at all to oil it... I'm pretty sure that's the traditional Japanese look... they just wire brush to get the loose dust off... not to raise the grain and make it looks different.

    I won't be oiling it... the samples I've done appear to be weather resistant enough for my needs and they have stayed black and sexy looking. I'm also using Jarrah as my base timber so even if water gets into the wood or the charred surface breaks down it's going to be fine externally.

    If I was you I'd just buy a torch and some timber and make some samples now... leave them out for your "year or two" and see how they look.

    You need to be careful how you detail the cladding too but that's a separate discussion I'm happy to have if you're interested.

    TC

  6. #20
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    May 2003
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    Thanks. Your reply is comprehensive and pretty much wraps it up.

    When you talk about ‘detail the cladding’, that’s about making sure it’s still weatherfast at the joints, I presume?
    Apologies for unnoticed autocomplete errors.

  7. #21
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    Mar 2010
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    Adelaide, South Australia
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    Hi Arron,

    Re detailing yes that's what I mean... any part of the wood that's not charred is vulnerable to moisture.

    If you're using boards that aren't profiled on the edges then you're using what's called a 'rainscreen' where the wood is purely decorative and it's the building wrap behind that's the building's water protection layer. This is very common in europe and it's the easiest method to DIY. You leave a 5mm or 10mm gap between the boards and it looks great but I wouldn't recommend this as there's only one building wrap that's UV stable on the australian market (Proctorwrap Black) and it's significantly more expensive than a normal building wrap.

    The other option is a profiled board, either home made or off the shelf. Either way you need to choose shiplapped over tongue and groove. There's no way to charr a normal T&G board and still have it fit together, and if you only char the surface then you're back to having to oil for durability.

    Of course my cladding runs vertically so if you're happy with horizontal your cheapest, easiest option is standard weatherboards fixed traditionally.

    Hope that helps,

    TC

  8. #22
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    Central Coast, NSW
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    Ok. Thanks for all your advice.
    Cheers
    Arron
    Apologies for unnoticed autocomplete errors.

  9. #23
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    Default Now doubting it works anyway

    What started me thinking about this again is that I went for a walk through a forest burned about 2-3 years ago. I couldn't help noticing that the fire-scorched timber had rotted down just as quickly as the unburnt timber, in fact I think more quickly. That's kind of inevitable really, if there was something magical about scorched timber not rotting then - with a countryside that burns as often as Australia's - we'd all be up to our noses in fire residue.

    So I'm wondering if there is really any proof that Shou Sugi Ban really does provide weather-resistance. What makes us think it does ?

    Some other thoughts:
    Most of the modern practitioners and service providers seem to oil their product, which indicates to me they have no confidence in it working.
    The Japanese seem to have plenty of timbers with remarkable natural weather-resistance. Maybe the scorching actually doesn't contribute much at all and doesn't need to.
    There are so many myths about Japan here in the West it pays to have a reasonable level of scepticism.
    I know charcoal has weather-resistance, but charcoal is made by burning timber in the absence of oxygen. Burning timber with a blowtorch isn't making charcoal - its just making burnt timber.

    Not sure about this. Just thinking out loud.

    Any thoughts.

    Arron
    Apologies for unnoticed autocomplete errors.

  10. #24
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    I came across a mob on Friday at a trade expo that do this very thing.
    www.hurfordwholesale.com.au
    There ain't no devil, it's just god when he's drunk!!

    Tom Waits

  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enfield Guy View Post
    I came across a mob on Friday at a trade expo that do this very thing.
    www.hurfordwholesale.com.au
    Good find. It’s interesting to see how it is traditionally done.join three boards,together lengthwise, fill with paper, light and let it burn like a chimney. A very different story to a bloke standing there with a blowtorch - and maybe leading to some significant differences in the outcome.

    I’m amazed at how deep he charred it.
    Apologies for unnoticed autocomplete errors.

  12. #26
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    Mar 2010
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    Adelaide, South Australia
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    For some reason I stopped getting notifications so I'm late to reply but a couple of quick comments:

    Arron:
    I share your scepticism about the durability, hence all the experiments I've done. If the modern technique was as good as the original triangular deep charring technique (which I assume you saw on youtube EDIT - which hurfords lifted completely from a dwell article) then I agree they wouldn't all be oiling it. The main appeal for me is the aesthetic look but I hate maintenance so as I think I said earlier, I am specifically using jarrah so that if (when?) the charring fails, the timber is robust enough to just weather in place and not cause me any real issues. If I thought the blowtorch version of the technique worked the way everyone claims, I would be using a softer more beautiful timber

    Enfield Guy:
    Fun story about Hurfords timber cladding. Their main cladding product used to be (slowly) roasted in an oven... it was beautiful, smelled amazing and lasted for ages but it still needed oiling and regular maintenance and it was definitely brown, not black plus it looked nothing like SSB. It was the only product of it's kind on the market here and it cost a fortune and (I'm told) didn't sell that well so they pulled it (just the cladding.. not the flooring) from the market a few years ago. Then interest in SSB exploded and now everyone wants to jump on the money train. Don't get me wrong... great company with great products but no one in the cladding world makes anything that is truly maintenance free and I doubt this will be any exception. For what it's worth Eco Timber and Cedar Sales (also good companies with good products) both offer a SSB product as well and they both pre-oil (with Cutek) and recommend ongoing oiling.

    EDIT - It's a shame to see that the Hurfords product still needs oiling and is rated BAL-LOW. I'd love to know if they tested it and it failed to score higher, or they just haven't tested it. It's relevant because one of the core claims for SSB is that it has reduced combustibility due to the charring so if that's true it should rate higher than BAL-LOW. If we are very lucky, someone from Hurfords might join this discussion and share some information
    Last edited by TychoCaine; 28th October 2017 at 07:24 PM. Reason: Edit 01, had a rant. Edit 02, tempered my rant.

  13. #27
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    Jan 2003
    Location
    Osaka
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    909

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    I should probably take a minute to point out that it is rare for a house to remain standing for much longer than 30-50 years in Japan. Not without substantial repairs/remodeling. Before we all get carried away with the idea that there are buildings here dating back a thousand years...well true, but some get torn down and rebuilt on a regular schedule, others fall over and are rebuilt, many have been burnt to the ground and thus been rebuilt, etc.

    Sent from my MI 5s using Tapatalk
    Semtex fixes all

  14. #28
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    Mar 2010
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    Adelaide, South Australia
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    q9:
    That's a very good point and I'm glad it's been embedded in the thread.
    Personally, I'm not looking for thousands of years... I'd be happy with 30 (which I'll get from the timber, irrespective of whether the SSB technique I'm using holds up over time or not)
    (Of course if I was a company bringing a premium product to market, I'd probably want to be 90% sure that it lasts at least 20 years.)

  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by TychoCaine View Post
    For some reason I stopped getting notifications so I'm late to reply but a couple of quick comments:

    Arron:
    I share your scepticism about the durability, hence all the experiments I've done. If the modern technique was as good as the original triangular deep charring technique (which I assume you saw on youtube EDIT - which hurfords lifted completely from a dwell article) then I agree they wouldn't all be oiling it. The main appeal for me is the aesthetic look but I hate maintenance so as I think I said earlier, I am specifically using jarrah so that if (when?) the charring fails, the timber is robust enough to just weather in place and not cause me any real issues. If I thought the blowtorch version of the technique worked the way everyone claims, I would be using a softer more beautiful timber

    Enfield Guy:
    Fun story about Hurfords timber cladding. Their main cladding product used to be (slowly) roasted in an oven... it was beautiful, smelled amazing and lasted for ages but it still needed oiling and regular maintenance and it was definitely brown, not black plus it looked nothing like SSB. It was the only product of it's kind on the market here and it cost a fortune and (I'm told) didn't sell that well so they pulled it (just the cladding.. not the flooring) from the market a few years ago. Then interest in SSB exploded and now everyone wants to jump on the money train. Don't get me wrong... great company with great products but no one in the cladding world makes anything that is truly maintenance free and I doubt this will be any exception. For what it's worth Eco Timber and Cedar Sales (also good companies with good products) both offer a SSB product as well and they both pre-oil (with Cutek) and recommend ongoing oiling.

    EDIT - It's a shame to see that the Hurfords product still needs oiling and is rated BAL-LOW. I'd love to know if they tested it and it failed to score higher, or they just haven't tested it. It's relevant because one of the core claims for SSB is that it has reduced combustibility due to the charring so if that's true it should rate higher than BAL-LOW. If we are very lucky, someone from Hurfords might join this discussion and share some information
    To be honest, I've just posted because i thought the information I found might be helpful. As far as the history of the company or the product is concerned, I'm not sure I really care. My overall view is that exterior timber should be coated with an emulsion of some sort to gain best longevity.

    Traditional finishes sometimes look good, and are different, ( satisfying the hipsters) , however, what do you want? A house that lasts, Or a COOL finish for the exterior of your build?

    I'll take paint, Ta.

    Cheers
    There ain't no devil, it's just god when he's drunk!!

    Tom Waits

  16. #30
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    Mar 2010
    Location
    Adelaide, South Australia
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    Hi Enfield Guy, my apologies if I rubbed you the wrong way.. I'm just trying to make the thread a useful resource for people interested in Shou Sugi Ban.

    I think my comments in the thread show clearly I'm not a hipster and that my primary concern is maintenance... but just in case to answer your question definitively - I want a house that lasts.
    A cool finish is a nice side effect as long as it doesn't undermine that first goal but I think that's true of any cladding and I would argue we all make performance compromises to suit our aesthetic preferences.

    For me personally, paint is the last thing I would consider on any cladding for exactly that reason... I don't like the way it looks and every exterior paint system on the market that I'm aware of requires ongoing maintenance, cleaning and re-application and the warranites are (relatively) short and specifically exclude colour fastness.

    I still feel personally that the SSB process applied to a hardwood will either last for the time it's supposed to or it will break down and the wood will silver off (which some people like).
    Either way I'll be left with a 'cool looking' cladding system that lasts for the time period I want and requires no maintenance.
    For me, that's win/win.

    cheers

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