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  1. #1
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    Default Shou Sugi Ban - Does anyone have any advice based on experience?

    Hello All,

    For the past couple of months I've been experimenting with Shou Sugi Ban... refer youtube or other threads if you're not sure what it is.

    I am looking for some practical advice, hopefully from anyone who may have experimented with the technique and used it in a real world application... preferably externally and preferably for cladding as per the traditional use.
    This post (or more specifically the comments below it) has been the most helpful thing I've found but I'm still no closer to where I need to be.... there are so many knowledgeable people on here I'm hoping someone might be able to help.

    My main issue is ongoing char rub off which I have been unable to solve.... Like most people who are trying it now I'm using a propane torch (weed burner) and then a wire brush to remove loose char before washing.
    Irrespective of which species I use (I have tried a variety so far - some soft, some hard) or how hot/close the torch is, char continues to rub off when the wood is touched... the only way to avoid this is to wire brush and wash so heavily that I remove almost all of the char which defeat the purpose of the process (also this only works with softwood, not hardwood).

    I'm reasonably sure the issue is with my finishing process and my understanding is traditionally the wood is oiled with Pure Tung oil... I've tried that (upto 3 coats with 48 hours drying time between each) and it makes no difference... the char continues to rub off. Internal clear coats (estapol etc) lock the char in but they obviously aren't suitable for external use.

    I'm interested in the process because I love the look and everything I've read says once the process is done (correctly) you can leave the timber exposed for years without any maintenance.... hence I want to avoid any kind of surface sealing product that needs to be re-applied regularly. I'm also pretty sure the wire brushing is not even required as many people apply a heavy burn to softwood to create an alligatoring/leather effect which they leave exposed... that surface leaves your hands black at the slightest touch and is reasonably fragile so I assume they're relying on the oil to keep it looking the way they want.

    All of the articles and videos I've found show the burning process in detail at the beginning of a project but no one talks about the oiling and controlling the char rub/wash off and no one ever posts follow ups in the future where they discuss how the timber is performing in the months and years after the first burn.

    So, does anyone have any advice that might help?
    - Am I putting the oil on too quickly? IE Do I need to just first leave the timber exposed to the elements so the char will be blown/washed off by the weather?
    - Is there a different oil I should be using? Overseas they use a product called Penofin (which I can't find here) and (ironically) a product called Cabots Australian Timber Oil, which is a linseed/tung blend that of course is not sold here.
    - Am I just expecting too much from the process? Is char rub/run off just the daily reality of the Shou Sugi Ban process and no one talks about it?
    - Is there something that I need to do AFTER the oiling? In one of the most prominent youtube videos they re-torch the wood AFTER it's oiled... just a lick and they mention something about sealing the oil in... I haven't tried this (but will shortly).

    Any advice would be most appreciated and of course I'm more than happy to share what I've learned with anyone who's interested (although I don't claim to be any kind of expert and I have very little experience with wood finishing in general).

    Thanks,

    TC

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  3. #2
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    Are you looking for a smooth clean charred finish or the more traditional "charcoal" look because it seems, from reading the information available, the different finishes require different methods.
    cheers
    sheddie
    If you never made a mistake, you never made anything!


  4. #3
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    Welcome to the forum TC.

    Ross

  5. #4
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    Are you making small things like boxes and furniture with it? Ive only ever seen it done like that with one species, but can't remember which. It looked mighty impressive.

    For outside work, Ive only read it done with Cedar.

    What imbers are you using?

  6. #5
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    Hello All,

    Shedhand - I am actually aiming to achieve both finishes for separate parts of the project and my research so far says while the techniques are indeed different the difference is relatively minor and comes down to how much you brush (if at all) after burning. I am using the aligatored (heavily charred) timber internally and I had the best results by just finishing it with a couple of coats of estapol straight after burning. That has worked fantastically on my internal samples and I am very happy with the results... the main difference in process there is that you don't wire brush at all... you just burn and then coat. For my external timber, I am heavily wire brushing which gives the smoother look but alas it just keeps rubbing off on my hands.... it's totally waterproof thanks to the tung oil (water just beads on the surface) but the char still rubs off.

    Ross - Thanks for the welcome.. I have been reading the forum for quite some time but just realised that was my first post!

    woodPixel - My project is a house. I have 100 lineal meters of baltic pine boards heavily charred for internal use (and they are looking amazing) and will have (if I can seal it properly) 400 lineal meters of re-machined Jarrah for the external cladding. The pine (being a softwood?) alligators beautifully with very little heat and then gives the same finish you'll see in all the videos depending on how it's treated. The Jarrah has a much denser grain (being a hardwood?) and turns a nice smooth black with what I call medium heat... it does alligator slightly (very fine cracks / shapes) if very intense heat is applied for a long time but honestly I think if that's the effect one wants you're better off with a softwood. I have chosen Jarrah for the external cladding because it is cheap, abundant and most importantly, class 2 durability so if the process does not work or fails/breaks down after a few years the cladding will still function, unlike a softwood which could break down or require significant maintenance (just my opinion). I think this is prudent given the resurgence in this finishing technique is so recent (2007 at the earliest with very little long term data on how well the "modern" process stands up over time).

    I have also tried the process with Cedar, Radiata Pine & Oregon (similar results to the baltic pine) and (with similar results to the Jarrah) Tasmanian Oak, Meranti & something I think was spotted gum (it was left over in my offcut bins and I hadn't labeled it). For your reference almost everyone on youtube/blogs etc does it to cedar, I believe because in the US there's a lot of it and also the process in japan is applied to Japanese Cedar. Having said that I did find one resource that said "Japanese Cedar" was actually a type of cypress and western red cedar was not appropriate as a target for the process.... I am inclined to write that off as one person's bad experience.

    If there's anyone else in Adelaide experimenting with the finish drop me a line... more than happy to pool resources and show some of my test pieces if anyone is interested.

    TC
    Last edited by TychoCaine; 7th November 2016 at 09:21 PM. Reason: Additional Info Added

  7. #6
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    So I know it's probably not cool to respond to your own post but no one seems to have much to say on this technique so I just thought I'd post an update.
    Since my original post I have had 4 samples sitting outside in the weather facing east... in that time we've had some 30 degree days and some very intense rain and hail so they are a weathered and exposed to UV.
    They all still look great and are as black as they were on day 1 except for my un-oiled sample which has lightened off quite a bit (no doubt from the heavy rain).

    As of today:
    - The 2 heavily wire brushed samples with 3 coats of tung oil are not exhibiting any char rub off, wet or dry (Success)
    - The heavily wire brushed sample with 2 coats of tung oil exhibits no rub off when dry and a very small (barely noticeable) amount when wet (success and the technique I'll be using moving forward).
    - The unbrushed sample with 1 coat of tung oil still exhibits rub off whether wet or dry.

    Good luck to anyone else who attempts this in the future!

    TC
    Last edited by TychoCaine; 18th November 2016 at 06:52 PM. Reason: Minor Correction

  8. #7
    themage21 is offline So that's how you change this field...
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    Thanks TC for your updates - I have been watching, but haven't had anything useful to add.

    I'm looking into having a go at this myself as well, so fingers crossed I can use your research to improve my own results!

    Out of interest, what are you using to scorch the timber?

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by themage21 View Post
    Thanks TC for your updates - I have been watching, but haven't had anything useful to add.

    I'm looking into having a go at this myself as well, so fingers crossed I can use your research to improve my own results!

    Out of interest, what are you using to scorch the timber?
    I tried with some hand held propane/butane torches from bunnings for my very first test but it quickly became obvious it was no good.
    I then bought a roofing torch from an ebay merchant for about $50 which was a complete waste of time and was returned 15 minutes after pickup when I realised it wasn't safe to use.
    This is the only thing I've found and at less than $100 it was totally worth it. I got mine from Supagas here in Adelaide and I think they stock it generally wherever they are... I paid $90 for mine.
    (I don't have any relationship to the supplier or retailer... just stating what I bought and from where).

    TC

  10. #9
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    Interesting thread. Can you give us some specifics such as the depth to which you're burning your timbers? How specifically are you doing the burning? Pictures would help.

    Thanks,
    Rob
    Innovations are those useful things that, by dint of chance, manage to survive the stupidity and destructive tendencies inherent in human nature.

  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob streeper View Post
    Interesting thread. Can you give us some specifics such as the depth to which you're burning your timbers? How specifically are you doing the burning? Pictures would help.

    Thanks,
    Rob
    No response = "No"?
    Innovations are those useful things that, by dint of chance, manage to survive the stupidity and destructive tendencies inherent in human nature.

  12. #11
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    Hi Rob,

    My slow response is in part because I'm busy in the lead-up to Christmas and in part because I have struggled to get some decent photos.. I have attached the best I could do but my camera isn't great and all of my samples have been either out in the weather or in my open shed (deliberately) for the last month or so and are covered in dust and dirt. Anyway to answer your questions:

    Depth of burn...
    varies depending on the species and desired aesthetic. I have found with the Jarrah that if I don't really hit it hard (IE at least 2mm) then the char does not go deep enough and the wire brushing removes almost all of it (refer below image).

    Jarrah 01.jpg

    With the burner I'm using it doesn't seem to matter how much heat I put into the Jarrah it doesn't catch on fire and it only alligators on the edges which is fine for what I need but it also means the deepest burn I can get on the Jarrah is about 2mm (without wasting a lot of gas which I haven't tried yet).

    The 3 samples below were burned to about 2mm and then wire brushed and hit with 2 coats of Tung Oil. They have been outside for about 2 months and are weathering really well. The first 2 images are the front faces that were burned, the third image is one of the back faces which had no direct flame applied to it (you can see there's less char depth in the damaged part of the timber).

    Jarrah 02.jpgJarrah 03.jpg Jarrah 04.jpg

    Here's what they look like when wet:

    Jarrah 05.jpg

    I am vaguely concerned because on day one after the second coat of tung oil, water applied to the surface would bead up like magic... after a couple of months in the sun it doesn't bead anymore but still seems to be being repelled.... I'm not sure if that's normal for Tung Oil... hopefully someone can chime in... I really hope it's not breaking down that quickly.

    Still on the topic of depth but now changing species to Baltic pine (which I plan to use internally)... all of these samples have a finish coat of either matt estapol or something similar (depending on what I had handy at the time):

    Pine 01.jpgPine 02.jpg

    Above is a light char (around 1mm, not enough to alligator the wood) with a very heavy wire brush... as you can see it's really not much different than using a 2 coat stain technique where you distress the grain and get that 2 tone look. In person though it looks quite a bit different... the burned parts of the wood have a beautiful sheen I've never seen on any of my staining tests (but I concede I'm pretty clueless on finishing techniques generally).

    Pine 03.jpg

    Same thing but with a light whitewash I made from a 50% acrylic paint/water mix wiped off before it got too dry... Internally some of the boards I have are for charring and some are for whitewashing... decided to see what happened if I combined the two but it didn't really work.

    Pine 04.jpg

    The one above came out surprisingly well... it was a sanded pine board that I repeatedly charred lightly so it got a lot of heat but it never caught fire and alligatored. I didn't brush it at all and touching it leaves your hands black but once I put a couple of coats of estapol on it it was fine... looks really beautiful but a black stain would probably do the same thing.

    These last 2 are fully aligatored... I hit them with a lot of heat until they caught on fire and then I let the fire burn a little before hitting them with a hose. I would say the char depth here is at least 2mm but probably more like 3mm.

    Pine 05.jpgPine 06.jpg

    They aren't wire brushed at all (it destroys the finish) but they have 2 coats of estapol on them and look pretty sexy.

    How I am doing the burning..
    Not much to share here really... I light up the torch and just blast them for maybe 10 seconds in any one spot (less for the pine unless I want alligatoring). then I just move the flame slowly up and down. I have my boards resting on an old shopping trolly base that I got at a scrap yard... that way I can easily move around and up and down... although I did accidentally set fire to one of the wheels once.

    In relation to my previous posts...

    re char rub off - this still happens on anything without a "finish" coat. Everything shown above is now fine... Jarrah oiled with the tung oil still gives char rub off but after a day in the sun and a brief spray with the hose this stops. All of the internal samples appear stable and they don't give any rub off either... it stops as soon as they have a coat of estapol or poly.

    re finishing products - I confirmed with cabots (Dulux) that the product most people use overseas (refer my first post) is definitely not available in the AU market and they have nothing like it in their range... they recommended a traditional external product which I'm not interested in.

    re additional post-oiling charring - I still have not tried this as my external cladding samples (Jarrah) lost their char rub off after 2 coats of Tung Oil and a couple of days in the weather.... I consider them to be a success and will likely use them as my cladding depending on a couple of other annoying factors that have appeared.

    Still very keen to hear from other people that are experimenting, or anyone who has anything positive to offer re the approach I've taken so far... criticism and advice is more than welcome as long as it's constructive!

    Rob - On a vaguely related note are you aware you live in what I consider to be the birthplace of modern Shou Sugi Ban? If I lived in Texas I would just call up Delta Millworks and buy their products. I believe they are one of the main companies responsible for the resurgence of the technique and they have done a lot of work bringing it to market in the US. As much fun as it is to re-invent the wheel I do wish someone in Australia was doing something similar that I could just buy off the shelf.

    cheers & seasons greetings,

    TC

  13. #12
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    Hi TC,

    Thanks for your response. Do you know anything about the use of silicones or driers and natural oils on the charred timber?

    I generally try to make if I can. I looked at the Austin co. website, very interesting. My wife really likes the look so you know what that means...

    Cheers,
    Rob
    Innovations are those useful things that, by dint of chance, manage to survive the stupidity and destructive tendencies inherent in human nature.

  14. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob streeper View Post
    Hi TC,

    Thanks for your response. Do you know anything about the use of silicones or driers and natural oils on the charred timber?

    I generally try to make if I can. I looked at the Austin co. website, very interesting. My wife really likes the look so you know what that means...

    Cheers,
    Rob
    Hi Rob,

    I don't know anything about Silicones but my external Jarrah is all oiled with 100% pure tung oil. I have also heard you can have good results with 100% Linseed oil but I haven't tried that yet... I believe they are both considered to be natural oils. I'm afraid I don't know exactly what a drier is so can't offer much in that regard.

    I can definitely relate to your last comment...my wife also loves the way the cladding is shaping up... it's very fiddly and labour intensive but I think worth it for the beautiful outcome... the photos really don't do it justice. The biggest issue is that it's a very tactile material... you see it and immediately want to touch it, at which point you get char all over your hands! Hence my quest to seal it... I'm pretty much there now but it's meant an additional "layer" of labour I was hoping to avoid (IE the additional coats of oil).

    Good Luck,
    TC

  15. #14
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    Sorry, I should have been explicit. I meant Japan Drier, commonly used with linseed oil to accelerate polymerization (drying) of the oil. Typically these are organic soluble salts of iron, manganese and cobalt. Seems like they'd work nicely as a coating of the char but this is all new to me.
    Innovations are those useful things that, by dint of chance, manage to survive the stupidity and destructive tendencies inherent in human nature.

  16. #15
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    Nothing to add, but it certainly looks like the real deal. Still done, but modern houses are, err, usually more modern in design and panel clad. I'll ask around, as there could be people that still do it as a profession.
    Semtex fixes all

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