Thread: $10 million for a violin for Australian orchestra

Just saw that on the news and I thought big deal. Why does it sound better? I don’t know.

Well they didn't pay $10mil if someone couldnt hear the difference or they would all be playing $25 chinee fiddles now wouldn't they.. how did Richard Tognetti choose between it and the stradivarius if not by sound and feel??

To have a violin like that in australia [once owned by paganini] is a bit of a coup and i for one will be looking foward to seeing it being played by a well aknowledged master player Richard Tognetti.

By the way the graneri del jesu is a pretty roughly made violin compared to the perfect craftsmanship of the stradivari's. it is the sound that made it Richard Tognetti's choice. As Tognetti said they have not been able to create anything like the sound of this instrument even after several hundred years of study and using all the technology available today.

I am glad some rich person bought it and put it out there for people like me to be able to hear it

But these seem to me to be individual subjective judgements. The question is, has anyone ever done something along the lines of a blind taste test for various violins? I suspect something like a placebo effect may be operative here.

And obviously you don't compare a $1million dollar master instrument with a $25 chinese toy. But I would like to see a comparison between instruments of value, say $10 million, $5 million, $1 million, $500k, $200k, $100k, $50k, $2k. Say a combination of mechanical acoustical tests as well as multiple blind perception tests with a mixture of expert, and not-so-expert listeners. Such a test could save orchestras (and individuals) millions of dollars to produce high-quality music. On the other hand, I suspect auction houses and investors would vigorously oppose such studies.

Where is the evidence that only instruments of several hundred years of age produce the best sounds. Has this been verified in blind tests?

You mean - has someone done a cost/benefit analysis???

For real informed discussion on this subject, try this link:

http://www.maestronet.com/forums/mes...&enterthread=y

mt

Hehe: good one contrebasse. Is this what passes for informed discussion?

Do you think they will smear the vegemite on the violin? It seems to go on everything else down there.

Until I see a cost/benefit analysis, I continue to remain skeptical

Hi all, I would like to hazard a guess and suggest that if you give it to a fool to play it will still sound like a piece of S##t. If you give a lesser instrument to an acomplished player, they have the ability to make almost any thing sound good.

Regards Mike.

Ps. The argument for old versus newish, this wood as opposed to that wood, made in that country or made in this country has been around since Adam was near the apple tree.

I heard this and wondered how much a cube that timber would be?

I think that the 'quality' of the sound is automatically subjective, and about as easy to explain as the darkside vs 'lectron debate.

Fascinating that the bloke was a humble luthier.

Whats the big deal.....the instrument was donated to the orchestra so its not costing the tax payer or the orchestra anything and its going to a good home where its going to be a source of joy for both those playing and listening to the instrument...it's a win win deal IMO.

Some aimless ramblings on the subject:

1. The Strads and other Cremone instruments were made by master luthiers who devoted their whole lives to making violins. These instruments are extremely well made and there aren't alot of them around.
2. The wood used in these instruments is generally of much better quality than the stuff available to luthiers today. Over time top quality tonewoods have largely been milled out. To buy tonewood of equivalent quality today costs big bucks (one reason I recently paid $US400 for a Brazillian Rosewood guitar back and side set).
3. Well made instruments made from top quality tonewoods do improve with age. This has been proven in endless scientific tests.
4. The Mona Lisa is worth alot more than the cost of materials and time taken to paint it but people dont balk when told the dollar value of the painting. A Strad is no different from LDV's famous painting...just think of a Strad as the Mona Lisa of the violin world.
5. How many people posting here moan about paying more than a dollar a litre for petrol but happily pay twice that for a bottle of water? People generally are horribly inconsistent when determining the monetary value of an item.

Cheers Martin

It's one of those questions where, if you have to ask, you won't understand the answer.

BTW, as for devoting ones life to perfecting the art, suggesting that the best instruments were made in the later stages of the makers life, the maker of this violin died at the age of 46.

Originally Posted by Termite

It's one of those questions where, if you have to ask, you won't understand the answer.

BTW, as for devoting ones life to perfecting the art, suggesting that the best instruments were made in the later stages of the makers life, the maker of this violin died at the age of 46.

The guy most likely would have been apprenticed at the age of 14 which means 32 years of experience behind him. I believe Stradivarius was apprenticed about the age of 11 and ended up making violins for something like 70 years.

Putting a dollar value on anything is a difficult one...everybody has their own ideas about what stuff is worth. A piece of nicely grained Tassie Blackwood sitting in a wood yard is gold to most people in here but to a non woodworker is just a lump of wood.

Hi all,
We had the pleasure of several luthiers producing their wares here. I observed Eugene Philip making about twenty guitars over a three year period. Eugene passed away and was a very informative fellow and friend. He was a prodigy of Greg Smallman who was the original designer of that syle of guitar bracing which Greg Smallman,Eugene Phillip and Ian Kneipp (who was Eugenes understudy) were making this style of guitar.

I note these guitars are selling for a Smallman 25.000 USD a Eugene Phillip about Seven to eight grand for a used guitar, and close to this for a Kniepp so you could say very experienced luthiers. One thing that was discussed with eugene was that you could make twenty of or more guitars and there would only one or maybe two which would be extra special. This applies to well known Guitars like Fender and Gibson as well. You could play Fifty of the same instrument and only one or maybe two would be very special. Greg Smallman moved to Melbourne and as far as I know still makes guitars and now his son makes these instruments as well. This is bit of interesting trivia I share with you. A great education in working wood gained by my self during these years.

Regards Mike

Talking about the guys who made the cremona violins and what each achieved in their own lifetime, you mustn't forget to ask the question, Who where they apprenticed to? The answer is to craftsmen and women who had their their skills passed down from generation to generation over probably hundreds of years in the one workshop. They developed very specific skills that were jealously guarded aginst the opposition and because of this, their secrets are to this day still unknown. They probably used wood in their violins that was put aside for air dryng by their great grandfathers while they were buying and storing woods for their great grandsons. That sort of tradition simply does not exist in todays world of lutheiry or for that matter any of the handcrafts

Originally Posted by contrebasse

You mean - has someone done a cost/benefit analysis???

Cost - zero (donated)
Benefit - greater than zero. I'd give my left nut to get my hands on some of A. de Torres guitars and give 'em a strum.

Cream rises to the top.

Strad, del Gesu etc would have made duds. They weren't looked after, didn't last .

Its not surprising that after 250 years or so the ones that are still around sound great.

I think if my bass sounds great, it has good chance of being around in 200 years time, if kept above the rising waterline. If its less than great, it'll end up in someone's attic and may or may not be rediscovered later and repaired. or it may get broken and no-one cares to repair it.

I think that the theories of secret varnish recipe, special groundcoat, secret techniques, even special woods etc are on the whole, red herrings. Kiwigeo, I'd argue with your points 2 and 3. Unless you show me proof! Scientists can prove blue is red if they want to.