Thread: Aussie wood for electric guitars

Originally Posted by simso

Okay going a bit technical, you are correct but theres also other factors which affect the speed, and yes density is a big one / grain structure etc...the angle the sound is introduced into the material can vary greatly the speed it travels through it, its noted as compressional sound / shear wave sound and plate, these are all dependant on the angles that the sound is induced into the material alsp on the material itself

To work it out the refraction angle ( the angle the sound is travelling through the materail) is calculated fromn the approach angle (incident) also the marterial the sound travels througfh for each medium be it air water etc now being smarty to calculate the angle.... and I know this of the top of my head you use the formula sin pheta 1 (incident angle)/ sin pheta 2 (refraction angle)= velocity one (example air) / velocity two (example wood) I had to work this stuff out every day for years.

Point being to the topic, not much, just thought I would share for the heck of it

I could waffle off at a tangent on things such as AVO analysis, triple air gun arrays and walkaway VSP surveys.....but all it would do is prove that I know alot about something that is not of great interest to others reading this thread and totally irrelevant.

When all said and done all anyone wants to do in this forum is learn how to make a great guitar, and some times some us lose our cool and say's some thing that upsets others me included, I say things then bite my tongue.

Merry Christmas
And my best wishes for the New Year to all.
Regards, Bob

Being a novice, i do know that i dont know much,
but i do know that when I have an appropriately sized peice of "tonewood" in my hands, and give it the "tap tone" test, it quite often rings like a bell...
To me, thats a candidate....simple as that...
BUT
What i did have to add, which is slightly left of topic, but MUST be relevant in some way,
is the the great Father of the Spanish guitar, Torres,
once did an experiment
and built a spanish guitar with only papier mache sides and back,
just to demonstrate his theory that the top of the acoustic guitar was the most important (and possiblty the only important)
part of the acoustic body.
Apparently, his theory proved out in that experiment.

Now, i'm not sure what that means here, in this context.... maybe nothing.
I guess thats where the hardware argument also kicks in,
seeing as we're talking electric...

not sure . .

Now this is where you and me will agree Slapfest. Quote below that when you hold a piece of tonewood in your hand and give it the tap tone test it often rings like a bell.
This is my view and I get a lot of strange looks from people when I am all of the time picking up slabs of wood and tapping them next to my ear.
But to me if a piece of tonewood has a good ring tone it is going to make a difference even in a electric guitar.
Cheers, Bob

Originally Posted by Slapfest

Being a novice, i do know that i dont know much,
but i do know that when I have an appropriately sized peice of "tonewood" in my hands, and give it the "tap tone" test, it quite often rings like a bell...
To me, thats a candidate....simple as that...
BUT
What i did have to add, which is slightly left of topic, but MUST be relevant in some way,
is the the great Father of the Spanish guitar, Torres,
once did an experiment
and built a spanish guitar with only papier mache sides and back,
just to demonstrate his theory that the top of the acoustic guitar was the most important (and possiblty the only important)
part of the acoustic body.
Apparently, his theory proved out in that experiment.

Now, i'm not sure what that means here, in this context.... maybe nothing.
I guess thats where the hardware argument also kicks in,
seeing as we're talking electric...

not sure . .

Cool...

Its hard to argue with your own ears, eh?

Dont worry, i get all sorts of looks as well ... its funny

Originally Posted by Slapfest

Torres,once did an experiment and built a spanish guitar with only papier mache sides and back,just to demonstrate his theory that the top of the acoustic guitar was the most important (and possiblty the only important) part of the acoustic body. Apparently, his theory proved out in that experiment.

.

The sound board is well know to be the dominant sound producer in a acoustic guitar but as you said, tap a piece of wood and you can hear it. Watch how a classical guitarist holds a guitar. They aim to keep their body off the back, the reason for this is that the back vibrates too, you can hear it and it adds it's characteristic sound to the whole picture. While you do not need the back in the sonic equation to build a excelent acoustic, if you choose to use the back you add its colour to the sound. To say which is better, a papier mache back or a BRW back is largely subjective and a matter of personal taste.

Merry Christmas Bob and the same to the rest of you wood freaks

Jim

Merry Christmas to you Jim, And thanks for the bending iron idea I have forwarded it on.
Now back to the subject in question Australian wood for electric guitar.
Does the wood make any difference in a electric guitar.? now to me if wood has a good tap tone it will make a difference I pick up wood day in, and day out and tap it ,some some pieces I can play a tune on solid pieces of wood that sound like sound boxes, very old wood air dried wood, does yound wood sound the same.? to me no. but thats me I love old wood
Cheers, Bob

Originally Posted by Slapfest

What i did have to add, which is slightly left of topic, but MUST be relevant in some way,
is the the great Father of the Spanish guitar, Torres,
once did an experiment
and built a spanish guitar with only papier mache sides and back,
just to demonstrate his theory that the top of the acoustic guitar was the most important (and possiblty the only important)
part of the acoustic body.
Apparently, his theory proved out in that experiment.

Antonio de Torres' papier mache guitar had a wooden neck as well as a wooden top.

One should be careful comparing acoustic tops with solid bodies....an acoustic top is acting like a drum skin. It's vibration modes are different from those of a solid body.

I agree with your below comment Martin an Acoustic top is acting like a drum skin.
I just tried to download a link from youtube that shows this in action really well.
The video link is Andy Mckee drifting youtube if someone can add the link to this thread it will be much appreciated. But can someone prove to me that wood with a good taptone and dense does not make any difference in a solid body guitar.?
Cheers, Bob



One should be careful comparing acoustic tops with solid bodies....an acoustic top is acting like a drum skin. It's vibration modes are different from those of a solid body.[/QUOTE]

As I understand it,
In1976, when Fender and his mates released the Musicman Stingray, it was an ash/maple combination...always an ash body .... worked lik a charm
(and yes, i'm not forgetting the ground-breaking hardware on board as well)
In the '80s Ernie Ball took on making these again, and made them, at various times with Ash, Poplar or Alder bodies...
These days, they no longer offer anything but Ash, because (and i can speak as someone that accidentally boought an alder bodied Stingeay)
they absolutley sucked.,.... no question....wouldnt give one to your enemy....terrible.
I, of course, quickly took a loss on that bass, bought an ash bodied one )
much, much better....... nothing like the previous rubbish.
I should add, i guess, i had PREVIOIUSLY owned an ash/maple one originally, and was expecting the same sound from the Alder one.
Thats the only example i can give from personal experioence, not being an expert, or anything

just to add....
when I mentioned this experience in the Musicman forums, I was howled down with messages saying , basically (you idiot...stay away from them...one guy referred to them as "poor cousin" basses ... one you give away to your poor cousin)
So some people seem to notice the difference.
I should add, there is no difference in any way to 2 band Stingray electronics since 1978....all the hardware is identical .

Originally Posted by woodturner777

But can someone prove to me that wood with a good taptone and dense does not make any difference in a solid body guitar.?
Cheers, Bob

Maybe you have skipped a few posts in this thread Bob but I think you will find there is some pretty good reasoning to suggest that the types of wood as well as other factors like dimensions, densities and stiffness of the wooden parts do in fact make a "difference".

As for "tap tone" tiger myrtle is said, by experienced builders to "tap like cardboard" yet it still makes a excellent acoustic guitar.

Jim

Botanical names ROCK!!!

Sorry Jim, your right it looks like I did miss some of the replys, Just been flat out at getting orders away before the Christmas New Year break.
Now its time to go back to work.
Have a listen to the youtube video if you get some spare time.
Andy Mckee drifting youtube.
Cheers, Bob

Originally Posted by toejam

Maybe you have skipped a few posts in this thread Bob but I think you will find there is some pretty good reasoning to suggest that the types of wood as well as other factors like dimensions, densities and stiffness of the wooden parts do in fact make a "difference".

As for "tap tone" tiger myrtle is said, by experienced builders to "tap like cardboard" yet it still makes a excellent acoustic guitar.

Jim

Botanical names ROCK!!!

Gday Guy's,

First of all A Merry Xmas to all & have a great New Year.

I've been a little busy trying to protect all my timber stock from rising flood waters.

I don't use the Internet very much but I have noticed that subjects seem to change as things proceed, makes it hard to understand, If you get my drift.

Most of the time when I test things I look at it in the way of what I don't know instead of what I think I know & have done for over 30yrs.
I'm pretty much a seeing is believing type so tests & results are not taken lightly, I did a simple test which I will explain further down.

Simso asked what relevance has the body timber of an electric guitar have on a vibrating string.
My 1000% answer to this is that it has everything to do with it & is the most relevant part.
The test will show this.

We have to look in terms of Harmonics & like I mentioned further back in this thread & also Stolar has mentioned it again just recently is that it is the way that the soundwaves, vibrations etc go through our timber or absorbed or reflected that sets up vibrations that interact with our already vibrating string introducing or rejecting particular frequencies-Harmonics.

The pickups as mentioned before will only pickup the what the strings are doing in the first place so should be disregarded when considering the natural Timbre only.
I can see the pickups need a thread all of there own, It will be a good thread & a much needed one I think.


Ok, have a look & listen of a very basic test.

First of all I strung a low E string of X measured length between two solid cast iron headstocks, I then placed a pickup in the central position & measured the height from the pickup & also the lateral position so that the string was aligned with one of the pickup poles.

I then tuned the string to exactly 82Hz & recorded plucking the string twice with a pick, as you will hear from the audio that the sound has no real sustain or tone just flat sounding.

I then mounted a bridge & nut on a piece of timber at the same length--measured as before, cut a pocket for the same pickup used & mounted this with all the same clearances etc as the test before, tuned this string to 82Hz & recorded this plucking the string twice as before.

Audio Attached, No noise editing etc, the same settings as the first test--untouched.

You will now hear a Huge difference in the sound, the notes have a distinct tone now with sustain to burn, a total difference.

The first two notes you will hear are of the String strung between two cast iron head stocks & the second two notes with the string mounted on a piece of timber.

I have included a pictrue of these two notes, you will see the ABSOLUTE difference in these with the first two being short & flat but the two notes with the string on timber are distinctly different in all ways, amplitude, time etc etc.

There are two other pictures of the spectrum analysis of the two different tests, you will note that with the string in between the cast iron headstocks has the fundamental frequency of 82Hz--marked & note the other harmonics.
Now If you look at the spectrum analysis of the second test on timber that it is totally different, again I have marked the 82Hz Fundamental frequency.
Note how the harmonics have changed with the introduction of a particular timber species.

Now this holds true for differing timber species & also the Age of the timber species, you can see differences in all of them.
The introduction of various types of different mediums will change the results as well.

Of course you can never compare directly the differences between new & old growth due to the fact that we can never have the exact piece for testing purposes.

But, there are certain characteristics shown by old growth that differ to new growth.

Distinct tonal qualities can be sought or disregarded as the luthier see's fit.

There's a lot more to building qood quality Instruments beside just timber craftsmanship, tone is subjective between all parties as we know but when tonal quality & sustain are catered for everybody loves it, guitars tend to want to drive home a solid full bodied sound that all enjoy.
There fantastic to play as well because they deliver.


WayneW