Thread: Aussie wood for electric guitars

very, very interesting
thanks Wayne

Wayne, out of interest could you provide details of the soft/hardware used to analyze the signal from the pickup?

Originally Posted by WayneW

First of all I strung a low E string of X measured length between two solid cast iron headstocks

Thanks again for your effort Wayne but again I find your test inconclusive. Firstly you did not mention what the "two solid cast iron headstocks" were mounted to. If they were mounted on a piece of jelly then I could understand your results. Secondly my experience differs as I have a mate in Sydney who has a metal neck pedal steel guitar. It is a professional model and has a beautiful tone with sustain that over shadows most electric guitars and makes me wonder about your test.

Originally Posted by WayneW

But, there are certain characteristics shown by old growth that differ to new growth.

What are those characteristics that differ in regard to better tone? I will add that I don't disagree that there can be a difference in their characteristics.

After reading Branko's (Stolar) earlier post I think I would have to now agree that the way the wood vibrates affects the way the string vibrates and does seem likely that it affects "tone" in a small way although it has nothing to do with sonic waves coming from the wood. Though once we change tone via potentiometers and caps etc we filter much out.

Originally Posted by WayneW

tone is subjective between all parties as we know but when tonal quality & sustain are catered for everybody loves it, guitars tend to want to drive home a solid full bodied sound that all enjoy.
There fantastic to play as well because they deliver.

It would seem to me that this statement you just made debunks the myth that old growth timbers make a "better" guitar than re-growth and that statement like this are still more advertising hype than reality.

Jim

Edit. That last paragraph should be more like this....It would seem to me that this statement you just made debunks the myth that old growth timbers make a "better" guitar than re-growth. It still seems to me that when someone insists old growth woods make better tone than other materials it is more advertising hype than reality.

Thanks wayne, very interesting reading.
Just out curiosity today I took the weight of 3 different species solid body guitar blanks.
Tasmanian Blackwood. 5.9. Kg.
Tasmanian Eucalyptus. 5.7 Kg.
Tasmanian Silver Wattle. 5.9 Kg.
I always allow extra size in solid body blanks so weight will be a lot less when finished.
Top two species old growth.
Now I stand to be corrected I state that I supply old growth wood but after meeting with Andrew Morrow who did the C.S.I.R.O Australian tonewood report who told me all of the vir'tues of silver wattle all aound excellent tonewood that has good density and sound volocity, so here we have young growth that is suitable. Photo attached Tasmanian silver wattle.
Attachment 156297

Jim, I forgot to answer your post above where you say that when some one insists old growth makes better tone that this is advertising hype.
Well for a start I do not believe in logging young growth forests, I believe trees should be left to grow to old age get large and reach there used by date.
Also apart from the wattle species that reach there used by date 40 -45 years.
most other Tasmanian species that I supply as tonewood are slow growing species, so to reach the size that I require 200 mm wide or more to get quarter sawn wood is very old growth and I also stand by my comments.
Cheers, Bob

That siver wattle looks real good to me,,
cant waito get a feel of it

Chris

Originally Posted by woodturner777

Well for a start I do not believe in logging young growth forests, I believe trees should be left to grow to old age get large and reach there used by date.

i like this

Gday Guy's,

Originally Posted by toejam

Thanks again for your effort Wayne but again I find your test inconclusive. Firstly you did not mention what the "two solid cast iron headstocks" were mounted to. If they were mounted on a piece of jelly then I could understand your results. Secondly my experience differs as I have a mate in Sydney who has a metal neck pedal steel guitar. It is a professional model and has a beautiful tone with sustain that over shadows most electric guitars and makes me wonder about your test.

Gday JIm,

Thanks for heads up on getting quotes on the page, I'll give it a go--cheers.

No the test was indeed conclusive for the particular test done, like mentioned this was a VERY basic test to show that the introduction of timber has a huge influence on things.
I think you may have been looking for a Holy Grail result from a very simple test.

Yes, Gibson in the early days made an Aluminium guitar but they soon changed back to Timber to improve tone. This is not to say your mates steel is no good & you may like the tone when it's all plugged in etc.
I can't really comment on this because I haven't seen it or tested it NOT plugged in to see what it has.
I would say though that it may sound ok but only until you hear a better one.

Originally Posted by toejam

What are those characteristics that differ in regard to better tone?

Though once we change tone via potentiometers and caps etc we filter much out.

This is what tests will show.

Once again we are not talking about how electronic components change or kill the Timbre of the instruments.

Originally Posted by toejam

It Edit. That last paragraph should be more like this....It would seem to me that this statement you just made debunks the myth that old growth timbers make a "better" guitar than re-growth. It still seems to me that when someone insists old growth woods make better tone than other materials it is more advertising hype than reality.

No absolutely not advertising hype, Again I think your jumping to premature conclusions, I will show tests as we go along to show some things but first it's important that people know what there looking at or at least realise Physics is real & this was found in about 1870 or before.

A really basic way of looking at this is that when trees grow they sprout up quickly over say 50-60yrs, this is when the money grabbers cut them down.

Of the three stages of growth for trees this is the worst time to cut them down as we are looking at JUVENILLE timber at best.

The next stage of growth is slow steady growth--mature growth, the money grabbers don't like this as things grow very slowly so they cut them down as the growth rate slows before this slow mature steady growth.
The next stage of growth is the Senescent phase, basically where growth is slowing at a greater rate, this is fully matured timber.

There is a huge difference between Juvenille timber & Mature old growth & the differences are like chalk & cheese for instrument building.

If I could get the same or better results by using young Juvenille growth timbers that are readily available, I would certainly use it as it is a lot easier to get & to work with. I can't get the results I want so I use old growth timbers.

I think also that because we have had Mass produced guitars of very questionable quality since the conception of the electric guitar & all the on stage electronics & the massive editing in recording studios that people are accustom to the sound of inferior quality guitars sounding ok due to the electronics & studio editing.
I know people who have gone & purchased a new guitar from a shop thinking that they will sound like there favorite guitarist, only to find out when they get home & plug it in they now have to spend even more to get anything to sound ok.

Now take away all the electronics & editing & they sound like crap, this is where better quality instruments shine with obvious differences.
They actually sound like Musical Instruments & not just Guitars for the masses.

People are strange, they will go & buy a Fender for instance, why, certainly not for looks, quality or sound when tested but because of nostalgic reasons. This is also strange because a real Fender hasn't been produced since 1967 when Mr Fender had enough & sold his business for 13 million dollars.
It doesn't make any sense to buy inferior copies of something that was produced all those years ago but people do even though without all the electronic aids they sound flat & horrible.


Gday Martin,

I have been looking at a couple of ways for people to get some good results from testing--cheaply. I am at the moment testing some of these ways compared to testing with more expensive equipment. Some of the results are very good & comparable to more expensive equipment.
I have a few more things to check & I will post some things & what to use for your testing as soon as I make sure your going to get some good & repeatable results from what I mention.

I wouldn't like to mention something that is not suitable for you, it is looking good at the moment though & I have been surprised at the accuracy of some results I am getting compared to a lot more expensive equipment.
I will keep you informed for sure as I like to see people take this craft to the next level & really understand things from testing.

Gday Bob,

I agree with your comments about the old growth.
Just one thing I have found is that the speed of the soundwaves through the timber for musical instruments is not quite so important as some other factors.
I realise it is important to some of the CSIRO testing for defect testing etc etc etc but not so important for musical instruments as some other characteristics have a higher priority.

WayneW

G'day Wayne

Originally Posted by WayneW

No the test was indeed conclusive for the particular test done, like mentioned this was a VERY basic test to show that the introduction of timber has a huge influence on things.
I think you may have been looking for a Holy Grail result from a very simple test.

You still have not mentioned what your "cast iron headstocks" were attached to. So again the test says nothing to me.

Originally Posted by WayneW

Yes, Gibson in the early days made an Aluminium guitar but they soon changed back to Timber to improve tone. This is not to say your mates steel is no good & you may like the tone when it's all plugged in etc.
I can't really comment on this because I haven't seen it or tested it NOT plugged in to see what it has.
I would say though that it may sound ok but only until you hear a better one.

"when it is all plugged in" I thought this was the point of a electric guitar.
Sure I agree you can't really comment but then you go on to comment, which is just a guess. Irelevent of my friends pedal steels "tone" is the question of sustain. Your "cast iron headstock" test shows very little sustain but a metal necked pedal steel has sustain to spare, plugged or unplugged, just listen to any of them.

Originally Posted by WayneW

This is what tests will show.

Once again we are not talking about how electronic components change or kill the Timbre of the instruments.

What we are talking about is the tone of a electric guitar when you play it. I think it would be fair to say most people plug them when they play it as that is the point of a electric guitar.

Originally Posted by WayneW

No absolutely not advertising hype, Again I think your jumping to premature conclusions, I will show tests as we go along to show some things but first it's important that people know what there looking at or at least realise Physics is real & this was found in about 1870 or before.

You still have shown nothing concrete that says it is any more than advertising hype. I say the opposite, it is definitely advertising hype. By the way what is the wood in the necks of those guitars you posted in the forum?

Originally Posted by WayneW

A really basic way of looking at this is that when trees grow they sprout up quickly over say 50-60yrs, this is when the money grabbers cut them down.

The "money grabbers" are the companies that continue to remove old growth forest for pulp as well as saw logs (small investment for a quick, huge return). The companies that see a future plant plantations and manage re-growth, they aim at rotations of up to 50 - 60 years in some cases longer(huge investment for a smaller long term return)

Originally Posted by WayneW

Of the three stages of growth for trees this is the worst time to cut them down as we are looking at JUVENILLE timber at best.

The next stage of growth is slow steady growth--mature growth, the money grabbers don't like this as things grow very slowly so they cut them down as the growth rate slows before this slow mature steady growth.
The next stage of growth is the Senescent phase, basically where growth is slowing at a greater rate, this is fully matured timber.

There is a huge difference between Juvenille timber & Mature old growth & the differences are like chalk & cheese for instrument building.

If I could get the same or better results by using young Juvenille growth timbers that are readily available, I would certainly use it as it is a lot easier to get & to work with. I can't get the results I want so I use old growth timbers.

Interesting rhetoric but it still says nothing about the tone of a electric guitar and I reiterate, we plug electric guitars in when we play them. What are those "huge differences" in real terms?

Originally Posted by WayneW

Now take away all the electronics & editing & they sound like crap, this is where better quality instruments shine with obvious differences.
They actually sound like Musical Instruments & not just Guitars for the masses.

This just sounds ludicrous to me as if you take all the electronics away it becomes a acoustic and one with very poor volume as well.

Originally Posted by WayneW

People are strange, they will go & buy a Fender for instance, why, certainly not for looks, quality or sound when tested but because of nostalgic reasons.

This statement is at odds with it self. You say they don't buy them for "looks" then you go on to say they buy them for "nostalgic reasons". I would say that the nostalgic reason they buy them for is directly related to the way they look cause they want to look like Jimmy Hendrix or Eric Clapton.


Jim

Life is good when you are amongst the wood.

G'Day Jim, I see that you have not replied to my post above why I support old growth wood, and once again I will say this old growth tonewood for that perfect tone.
To me apart from silver wattle all the tonewood I supply is old growth and me as well as many other people I do business with believe old growth wood has a better sound and old growth wood is far more stable. Now to me Jim as I am part tone deaf listening to far too many live rock bands in my life it would be hard for me to know for for sure what wood the guitarist was using in his guitar, old wood, young wood.?, I supply what my customers ask for and I dont use the words old growth wood for that perfect tone as advertising hype.
Also please see the other reason in my early post why I support and supply old growth tonewood.
Can you prove to me that old growth wood does not sound better or have a better tone.?
Cheers, Bob

Originally Posted by WayneW

Gday Guy's,

Yes, Gibson in the early days made an Aluminium guitar but they soon changed back to Timber to improve tone. WayneW

Actually it was Rickenbacher in 1932 with their Fryingpan model Lapsteel guitar made with cast aluminium neck and body.
In 1935 they introduced the bakelite Model B which is considered the most desirable of the lap steels and was what David Linley played with Jackson Brown.
In 1937 they added a sheet steel hollow model
It was only in the mid 50's that they added the inferior wood bodied models
Here's mine from 1937
Attachment 156668

i've already tried sying that just from experience , older growth guitars/basses sound better, fuller, louder acoustically, before you flick any switches or plug anything in.
and we're still not convinced after wayne's work?
ts not politics or religeon to me, i just listen,,,,,
i dont care either way....... thats just what i'm hearing
but it always struck me when playing music with others....
Not everyone has the same ear.....especially when it comes to listening.


And thanks Wayne for doing and sharing that....great work

also knew a guy that had a . . Kramer, i think??
some sort of alloy neck that split into a 'y' at the headstock..
he made it sound pretty good, but then again he could make an old boot sound pretty good..
but i remember he said that unless they were playing at night, under lights...the damn thing was really cold...took a hell of a long time to warm up

G'day Bob, I didn't see anything in your post to reply to. I have no need to "prove" anything, I would have though it better for you to show some proof as it is you who use it as a advertising slogan.

Jim