Thread: Aussie wood for electric guitars

Originally Posted by Sebastiaan56

I read in Benade that the damping effect applies to higher frequencies and the lower modes are not affected Jim.

Not quite sure I get what you mean here, are you saying that it does not matter where you damp, say a marimba key in its first mode? or that damping it does not affect sound?

Also are you saying that beyond mode five damping will change nodal points?

Jim

Edit...Also I was referring to the supports of the situation in work done on the site you referred to and they didn't look further than mode 5

Originally Posted by Sebastiaan56

This thread is too quiet,

some more to argue about Dr. Russell's Research - Acoustics of Guitars Assuming for this instruments these are standard modes of vibration how does the age of the timber affect the mode at 55Hz? Discuss....

Oh Looks like I totally skipped your question for discussion.

Now that is a good question so my bash is, assuming that a piece of wood from a old tree is stiffer than that of a piece of wood from a new tree then I would think that the mode cuts in at a different frequency, I think, at least I think I think. That is to say that if we build two guitars the same one of stiffer wood than the other then the first mode will occur at different frequencies on the two different guitars.

Jim

Originally Posted by Sebastiaan56

I read in Benade that the damping effect applies to higher frequencies and the lower modes are not affected Jim. But after mode 5 there are increasingly complicated interactions. This is why I contend that playing position must affect sound and am happy to accept the affect of tonewood on the sound outcome. Now how that informs building is the issue.

OHHHH, look at that very distracting thing over there
Dont mind me, I just thought its all very "hair splitting" and wanted to distract you for a moment Yes, im a little bored atm

OK, back to the topic

Maybe the best way to show "real world" results would be to build the same instrument 5 times, in different woods, then use all the positive results in the MASTER PLAN,,,,, or dump the innitial plan for too many negative atributes.

I wonder what a laminated soundboard with infused ribs would produce?
Im thinking two 1.5mm spruce layers with infused 0.8mm carbon fiber ribs.
Mmmmmm "ribs",,, I wonder what's in the fridge?

Originally Posted by DarwinStrings

Also I have never seen Eric live either but maybe one day he will get to Darwin and I will go see him.

Jim

I saw him when he played in Adelaide a few years ago. A very disappointing concert and a lazy performance from EC. Derek Trucks played shrill and loud slide on every number while Doyle Bramhall shredded... other than vocals EC mainly sat back and played rhythm just doing a few licks and leads now and again. He chose to play a lot of material from the John Mayall days, so really there were probably only six or eight songs that could be counted as "greatest hits". I took my (then) wife and stepson so it was $700 and a few hours of my life I'll never get back.

By comparison I've recently seen Yusuf Islam (Cat Stevens), Peter Frampton, America and Chicago and they all gave at least 100% and their sets were mainly songs the audience expected to hear.


As for this topic on timbers and tones... here's my take on it. There's more crap talked about pickups (especially boutique pickups) than any other component of solidbody instruments, followed by timbers and then set neck vs bolt on neck. Clapton played and recorded Crossroads on a Firebird and a Flying Vee (softwoods, set neck and humbuckers), an ES335 (hardwood semi solid body and softwood set neck and humbuckers) and various Strats (hardwood body and bolt on necks and various single coil pickups from vintage Alnicos through to Lace Sensors), and through various amps ranging from Vox 30's through to Fender combos and Marshall stacks.... All the recordings I've heard sound much the same, so the difference is the player, the instrument, EQ and amp settings, and whatever happens at the desk! Jimmy Page used a doubleneck SG (softwood set neck and humbuckers) onstage for Stairway but on Led Zep 4 he recorded it with a Tele (hardwood body and bolt on neck and very basic vintage single coil pickups). So what you do with your volume and tone controls, how you play, and your amp and EQ setup has more bearing than the pickups and timbers.

Originally Posted by JupiterCreek

I saw him when he played in Adelaide a few years ago. A very disappointing concert and a lazy performance from EC.

If I took your advice and when Eric turned up in Darwin I decided to save my money and stay at home it would be just my luck that all my friends that went to see him would say it was great and I should have been there decisions, decisions. Anyway I doubt it would be likely he would turn up as those mob usually do "Australian Tours" which excludes Darwin (like we are in Indonesia) Still, we do have the endless summer and I would not trade that for a Clapton concert any day.

Jim

He was my bucket list, so nothing ventured - nothing gained!

It took him 17 years to get back to Australia, so I wouldn't hold my breath. ;-)

Originally Posted by AussieOzBorn

Maybe the best way to show "real world" results would be to build the same instrument 5 times, in different woods, then use all the positive results in the MASTER PLAN,,,,,

Still wouldnt work, if you get a different result, is that becuase of the wood, the strings, the pickup, the bridge, the neck and so forth, even given them being theoreticaly identical, in fact they wont be, so all to no avail,

Originally Posted by simso

Still wouldnt work, if you get a different result, is that becuase of the wood, the strings, the pickup, the bridge, the neck and so forth, even given them being theoreticaly identical, in fact they wont be, so all to no avail,

Well then, as Bad Boy Bubby said,,, "If thats all we got, we're f#*ked then".
I guess thats what makes this a form of alchemy in its own right.
And we do love a challenge, yes?

Looking further at the link Sebastiaan provided, it does show that no matter what wood you use you can still build a crap electric guitar. That is to say that if you choose a shape, size, density where some of those modes cut in at the same frequencies as the notes you are playing then you will have all sorts of unevenness across as well as up and down the fret board. Depending on those modes and their position in relation to note frequencies you could end up with some notes sustaining well and others as no more than a plink.

Jim

Someone please turn up the Tele!

Originally Posted by simso

Still wouldnt work, if you get a different result, is that becuase of the wood, the strings, the pickup, the bridge, the neck and so forth, even given them being theoreticaly identical, in fact they wont be, so all to no avail,

My background is in statistics in manufacturing and I have some experimental design experience. FWIW Im a certified Quality Engineer. From a designers POV the key is to isolate the most important variables and then work your way down the list till you get to the product attributes that you are trying to understand. Multivariate analysis will soon tells you what is important or not. Way back on page 3 or 4 there was a comment on changing windings on the pups to get a Fender or Gibson sound. Easy peasy. So from my point of view given the lack of data the tonewood argument is either field for much profitable research or a waste of time depending on what you are trying to achieve.

The links posted to guitar modal analysis if nothing else show that the factories are really the only ones who have resources to quantify these results. Id bet they paid for the research and Im sure the data from Dr Russell at Kettering University has been trawled over by Gibson engineers to optimise both the manufacturing process (cost) and material utilisation (cost) to achieve an optimum product (ie lowest total manufacturing cost). We have been informed that this work has been done and Im sure the modelling has been applied to other designs. From the manufacturing process POV the key will to buy material to a uniform spec and control manufacturing variables (Dimensions, thickness of lacquer, etc) as closely as possible. As Jim has indicated the basic understanding of modes will eliminate major flaws in playability and it will be handed to the Marketing Department for placement with some big name artists and magazines etc. Everyone will get their bonuses.

Until they release their data the weekend hack will be stuck with either trial and error or copying established designs.

Thanks everyone for their responses to my original post. I was provided with plenty of options and learned quite a bit about Aussie tonewoods along the way. And the diversion into what contributes more to a guitars tone was very illuminating.

As a matter of interest I went with Tasmanian Blackwood. My first guitar is built and just needs to be painted/finished. I went with a flatsawn through body maple neck with ebony fretboard and Tassie Blackwood for the body. I would have gone with Aussie woods for the neck but I thought neck construction too difficult for a first guitar and bought a partly finished neck instead.

I am starting my second solid body electric guitar and it is Tassie Blackwood neck and body (the neck built from scratch this time and I haven't decided on fretboard wood yet). I will start a new post for this build and make my questions much more specific.

Again, thanks for all your help.

Hi Nobus,

Looking forward to some pics of your guitar.

Apologies on behalf of myself and many others for hijacking your original thread rather than simply answering your questions. On the positive side your original post generated an extremely fascinating thread which I've thoroughly enjoyed.

Cheers Martin

Like wise I have really enjoyed this thread and it is not finished yet.
Cheers, Bob

Originally Posted by simso

Nobus, in regards to your original question, the wood selection for an electric guitar is really irrelevant, you can use plywood if you really want and paint it.

Wood selection however is really importamt on acoustics violins etc

Old thread, but I saw it during a search and disagree - a huge part of the tone and sustain of an electric comes from the wood choice. Sure, the pickups colour the sound but the main character comes from a combination of the wood and the string weight.

I've had a few instruments over the years, a ply strat copy, a Jackson, a Charvel and my fav, a Maton MS500 with a pair of Seymour Duncan P90's in it on what I recall being a Queensland Bunya body, weighs a ton but is by far the best sounding instrument I've ever had, both plugged in and not.

You take a plank of pine and rig a couple of nails, a string and a pickup on it, then do the same on something with better resonance and tell me it makes no difference!