Good afternoon ( or G¨Day ) as you guys say!!!
My name is Eric and I am an american citizen living and working in beautiful Argentina. I have been interestd in lutherie for quite a while and recently have decided to venture into learning to build guitars in the spanish style. I have some 1966 Ramirez style plans along with matching acrylic template on order from LMI, not to mention John Bogdanovichs book "Classical guitar Building" on order as well. I already have been studying and reading up on this for quite some time now and I have the Irving Sloan Book which seems to be pretty good. I used to work with wood and build things with my dad years ago, but not in some time.
Unfortunately living in a small city here in Arg, I do not have access to any luthierie schools or courses ( all of them are in Buenos Aires the capital ) so I will have to rely on the books and downloadble videos and anything and eveything else that I can absorb. Finally my question gentlemen is this:
In building the dished workboard or solera, how will I know the specifics regarding the depth of the radius and the neck angle? Will this be detailed on the guitar plans that I am purchasing? is their a general standard regarding the dpeth of the dish, or is it going to depend on the plans that I will be building from. There just seems to be SO many ways to make one....any tips or comments regarding this process and how to construct my first workboard correctly and accurately to build the guitar properly?

Welcome aboard Eric,

Im going to bugger everything up for you by telling you that my solera is flat and that I use shaped carpet tile bits to get to the 3mm radius Im looking for in the finished instrument. But then I use different bits for different instruments. I have also used a splayed stack of playing cards to get to the radius I was after. There are lots of ways to skin this cat. When you know what you are trying to end up with the solution will present itself.

Have you chosen the timbers you are going to use?

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"We must never become callous. When we experience the conflicts ever more deeply we are living in truth. The quiet conscience is an invention of the devil." - Albert Schweizer

My blog. http://theupanddownblog.blogspot.com

Hello Sebastian, and nice to meet you...thanks for the welcome!

I have found a few online guides regarding fabricating the solera, but they are more geared to building hauser designs and I am not sure how this will plug into the Ramirez plan that I will be building from.
I am going to order a book on Luthiery called "Guitarmaking: Tradition and Technology...from what I am studying, it seems like a good start for me....and I can find it here in Arg ( both spanish and Engl ) which is good
Regarding the woods....with the first guitar I am going to use some low grade Spruce, and probably Nogal (Argentine walnut) or Algarobo ( a member of the mesquite family )

I am also looking at what they call Paraguayan Cedar for the neck and tailblock wood. I am going to "practice out" each step as much as I can before attempting it on the wood. I am going to build a side bending form, a scarf cutting jig and probably a shooting board of some kind to glue the plates....these jigs seem simple to build and I have found some good resources online for building them. Once I finish this first guitar...see how it turns out...if its going to be a really butchered job ( gulp ) at least I wont have invested tons of pesos in the good stuff. Depending on how I do regarding the first build...maybe I will build another low grade wood guitar, or if I feel like I am up to snuff enough to try some finer woods I will go that route.
For my personal guitar...def Red Cedar top, Indian, Madagascar or Brazilian (jacaranda) or East Indian rosewood. I can get some brazilian rosewood here fairly pletniful because alot of it here comesfrom Paraguay where it is not protected...even though it might not fit into that "master grade" quality wood, from what I have seen and read it seems to be fairly well quartersawn with good grain in it. I am also looking at Pau Ferro ( plentiful and cheap ) and Bolivian Rosewood ( also plentiful and cheap here.
Regarding the neck wood...def Spanish or honduran cedar, and I am looking at Koa rosettes and binding as well

what do you think?

Bogdanovich's book has diagrams that show how to dish out the solera.

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Whatever note you blow youre never more than a semitone away from the correct one....(Miles Davis)

Hi Eric,

A few more comments:

1. The amount of dishing and exact location of same might vary subtley from maker to maker but not enough to warrant a specific solera plan for each. Id just use the guidelines from Campiano and Natelson and adjust as necessary.
2. Choices of woods. For a first build I always say keep it simple. Indian Rosewood is my first choice for side and back wood....its not too expensive and its easy to bend. For top wood I'd got for Sitka or Lutz spruce. Both easy to work and not as susceptible to damage as Engleman. Red cedar for a classical top....I dont like the stuff...not as stiff as spruce but thats partly my personal taste.
3. Neck wood....I use spanish cedar on my classicals. Its easy to work and its nice and light. Watch out for skin rashes while working the stuff and avoid breathing in the dust.

Cheers Martin

__________________
Whatever note you blow youre never more than a semitone away from the correct one....(Miles Davis)

Thanks Martin and to everyone for your helpful comments and guidance:

I am planing on keeping this first guitar very simple. I have found a few luthier wood and tool suppliers in Buenos Aires that offer some good materials and tools at good prices. I will probably use Algarrobo for my first build regarding backs and sides, as the luthiers here say it is easy to work and bend and cheap Like a back and side set for 50 pesos ( about U$S 15 ). Not to mention the Paraguayan cedar here is in plentiful supply and cheap, many Argentine luthiers make some very fine necks out of this cedar and they say it has similar properties as spanish cedar.
I am just going to use a simple wood rosette that I am purchasing from LMI. Regarding the tops, here in Argentina they have "Pino Abeto Aleman" (German Spruce) and what the Argentines call "Pino Canadiense" ( Canadian Pine ), I assume its either Englemenn or Sitka, but not completely sure, just know that most of it is imported from Canada. Also here in Argentina they call Red Cedar ( Pino de Orgeon ) which is weird because I think Red Cedar is actually a member of the cypress family ( please correct me if I am wrong and not a Fir or a Spruce or Larch for that matter.
Regarding the Solera I will study out the plans and the book when I receive them well in advance of beginning to build some of the jigs and solera. I am also assuming that building the Solera calls for planing down for the neck angle as well, but it seems not all luthiers are doing that with their soleras...some of them just dish out the lower bout and leave the rest of the solera flat it seems...
My thinking is if I get the neck angle and all the bugs worked out in the beginning I will have more satisfying results when I finish

Sounds like there is no shortage of quality timbers to choose from. If the local luthiers are recommending certain timbers I'd use them! I think that using less expensive timbers is the way to go for your first instrument. If you get the bug then the sky is the limit and if you dont then at least you have learnt something without outlaying big pesos. Please post photos of your progress.

__________________
"We must never become callous. When we experience the conflicts ever more deeply we are living in truth. The quiet conscience is an invention of the devil." - Albert Schweizer

My blog. http://theupanddownblog.blogspot.com

Classical guitars usually have a slight positive rack on the neck (cf steel strings that have a negative rake). There are two ways of achieving the positive rake...1. planing the neck support area of the solera so its lower by 2-4mm at it;s end relative to the main part of the solera or 2. building with a flat solera but dialing in some positive rake on the neck by planing the fretboard so its thicker at the nut end (Lundberg uses this technique on his lutes). Two ways of achieving the same end result.

The dishing of the solera is generally done in the lower bout area. My solera is dished from the sound hole back over most of the lower bout area. The dishing stops about 25mm short of the periphery of the lower bout so that the top/side junction is close to 90 degrees. Even with such a set up I find that I have to shape the tantalones on a sanding board so they fit properly.

Cheers Martin

__________________
Whatever note you blow youre never more than a semitone away from the correct one....(Miles Davis)

I second that! If youve got local luthiers then try and spend some time talking with them and ideally get some time in their shops watching them work. If you get any resistance then try Richard Schneider's trick of camping outside your favourite luthiers shop until he relents and takes you on as an apprentice.

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Whatever note you blow youre never more than a semitone away from the correct one....(Miles Davis)

Welcome to the forum Eric .

I look forward to following this thread and seeing some of these exotic timbers you have access to. I too will embark on my first acoustic build soon........having been on the "dark side" since day 1, I think it is time for me to leap into the void .

Good luck with your project!

Jon

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Hi Jon, I am going in the other direction, I have only built acoustics and am about to start my first electric build, perhaps we might be able to do a little mutual brain picking. Firstly if you are only planing on building one I would suggest getting a kit to start because if you do a build from scratch you will find yourself spending a great deal of time building jigs and forms, you will also need some of the specialized tools for bending sides amoung other things.Or if you live near someone who builds acoustics you will spend a lot of time at their house. I still love building them but curiosity has got me thinking I would like to do an electric which may open up a whole new field for me who knows. Another thing I think you will find very usefull is a set of DVDs done by Chris Wynne. The ste is called "A Master Class In Acoustic Guitar Making" I've seen them at Carba-Tec it is well worth a look as it will save a lot of time fixing mistakes. If I can be of any help let me know. Cheers, Robert.

Thanks for your comments and advice guys!

I am afraid that for maybe my first few builds I am going to use some less expensive lower grade woods and try to keep things simple, not to mention this project is still in its infancy stages. I have many of the tolls on loan from my father in law, but I am waiting on the books and plans from the US. Unfortunately, living in south america means news and things travel more slowly, especially since I live about 5 hours south of gran Buenos Aires ( the capital city which is where "everything" is. I also was not able to find many luthiers resources. I found some that had the acrylic templates but not the plans etc...and another site that sold the tools, but only on order from the states ( and usually with the added import taxes Many things however I have found at a good price at local "Aseraderos" ( saw mills ) and hardware stores...a mixture of american and Chinmes manufactured tools..but at good prices.
So its goona be some time yet before I have things in order to begin. In the meantime I am learning and absorbing as much as possible. Also unfortunately camping out here outside some luthiers shops will be difficult. I have only found one in my immediate vincinity ( immediate meaning a 50 minute bus ride one way to the far corner of the other side of the city, and this luthier mainly especializes in electric guitars. The next nearest classical type guitar ( called "guitarra criolla cri-o-shah here ) is about 2 hours away..
So its up to the books, videos plans and advice I can receive from you guys! Once I begin fabricating the solera and a few jigs ( mainly a shooting board, a side bending machine and a scarf cutting jig...this will take some time ) I will post pics..

Sounds like it could be tough going Eric where you are however necessity is the mother of all invention/where there is a will there is a way etc. I'm sure the good folk of this forum will be only too happy to help as you go through the process.

Bob, thanks mate for your kind and generous offer. I also think a kit is the best way to start and I actually lashed out on the Chris Wynne DVD when it first came out......super stuff! I remember ALS had a nice Dreadnought kit at a discount price a little while ago.......

Jon

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Thanks Ethereal guitars I appreciate the encouragement....I am actually looking forward to this project, and even though it might take some tim to build up some steam, I think its going to turn out well. My father in law has tons of woodworking experience, not to mention an engineering degree
With the will (a nd some patience) there will def be a way. there are so many sources on the internet and I can even download them onto my computer and even read them oir study them out well before hand
I will certainly be posting my progress and probably be asking a plethora of questions before it is all done