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  1. #1
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    Default Calculating fret positions

    Fretting??? I found this if anyone is interested.
    Cheers
    If you never made a mistake, you never made anything!


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  3. #2
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    WFret is a free program that lets you print out a template for fret positions. Works very well.
    Chris
    ========================================

    Life isn't always fair

    ....................but it's better than the alternative.

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    Cliff.
    If you find a post of mine that is missing a pic that you'd like to see, let me know & I'll see if I can find a copy.

  5. #4
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    Default

    That is a great little utility. There are a few things to be careful of though. It generates PDF format files and some PDF printing utilities default to scale to fit. I'm looking at you Mr Adobe. You need to make sure you print them actual size. Double check by measuring the nut to 12th fret distance. Double that should be your scale length.
    You are also at the mercy of the accuracy of your printer and the stretchyness of the paper.

  6. #5
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    Default Fretfind2D

    I didn't use the printout. Measured each fret using my digital micrometer and my CNC Gifkins square.
    If you never made a mistake, you never made anything!


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    Quote Originally Posted by Shedhand View Post
    Fretting??? I found this if anyone is interested.
    Cheers
    This calculator especially useful for multiscale (can't use the term "fan fret"...it's patented by Ralph Novak) instruments.

    As already mentioned printing out the PDF can be a P in the proverbial and serious mucking around with printer settings may be required before an accurate template is produced. Me.....I gave up and I measure and mark up directly onto the fretboard blank.

    Possibly a bit off topic but a good lead into valuable debate......while youre merrily marking up and cutting your fret slots give some consideration to intonation and compensation. For a start that first fret should be a few mm closer to the end of the fretboard
    Whatever note you blow youre never more than a semitone away from the correct one....(Miles Davis)

  8. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwigeo View Post
    Possibly a bit off topic but a good lead into valuable debate......while youre merrily marking up and cutting your fret slots give some consideration to intonation and compensation. For a start that first fret should be a few mm closer to the end of the fretboard
    Why and what benefit is it? Would it only apply to acoustics or electrics as well?
    cheers
    If you never made a mistake, you never made anything!


  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shedhand View Post
    Why and what benefit is it? Would it only apply to acoustics or electrics as well?
    cheers
    In a nut shell......fret positions are calculated assuming a fixed and known scale length between the nut and saddle. Unfortunately as soon as you fret a string you stretch the string and change it's scale length. This is the reason compensation of some sort is required on a fretted stringed instrument to end up with an instrument that has correct intonation...ie it plays "in tune" no matter what note is fretted. On an acoustic you also get body resonances which can affect intonation.....a problem not usually present on electrics.

    The most common approach to correcting the intonation on an acoustic guitar is to apply a bulk compensation at he saddle.....on a steel string this is why the saddle is on a slant (max compensation on the bass side, less on treble side). On a nylon string the bulk compensation is handled by moving the whole saddle back from theoretical scale length position by a few mm. On most electrics the individual saddles are moved aft from theoretical scale length by the appropriate amount to achieve "correct" intonation. In all cases the correct amount of compensation is most commonly arrived at by comparing the 12th fret fretted note with the harmonic generated at the same fret and adjusting compensation until both the notes are the same.

    Once all the above has been achieved you will generally have an instrument that is correctly intonated above the 12th fret and immediately nut side of same. However once you get down to the first to third frets the intonation will start to wander (notes will be noticeably sharp). This happens because the compensation added at the saddle improves the intonation for fretted notes but this compensation is not needed on open strings. Players tune the open strings to true pitch so you end up with the lower frets producing notes that are sharp.

    How to fix the intonation issues close to the nut?......you can cut about 3mm short of the theoretical "zero fret" position and leave it at that (some classical builders do just this) or you can do the latter and also install a compensated nut. The theory is straight forward but calculating how much nut compensation to apply to each string is where it can get tricky. I do it using a string jig......basically its a mock up of the fretboard of the instrument I'm working on....same strings, same 12th fret action, same string height at 1st fret and in the case of steel strings I simulate neck relief as well. The jig has a moveable saddle with a pizeo pickup that I plug into my laptop which is running a frequency meter application. The jig also has a moveable nut. I first move the saddle back until I get the 12th fret fretted note and harmonic the same and I note the distance I have to move the saddle back from theoretical scale length.. I then finger the 2nd fret and compare the actual frequency of the note with the theoretical frequency. I move the dummy nut forward until the two frequencies are the same and note the distance from front of dummy nut to theoretical zero fret position...this then becomes the amount of nut compensation I apply on the instrument.

    Of course before delving into instrument compensation you have to decide how far you want to go with it. Most people are happy with the bulk compensation applied at the saddle end on an acoustic or the string saddles on an electric. However there are many players who can pick up a 4-5 cent difference in intonation around the lower frets and open strings and for these people nut compensation becomes a must.

    Guitar building...for the luthier a wonderful mix of compromises and stuff that makes less sense the more you think about it
    Whatever note you blow youre never more than a semitone away from the correct one....(Miles Davis)

  10. #9
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    For more see here: http://setitupbetter.com/Understandi...Intonation.php

    Also refer to Trevor Gore and Gerard Gilet's recently published two book set on guitar building. In same youll find a method for calculating compensation that is heavy on the maths but is the most accurate method for achieving same.
    Whatever note you blow youre never more than a semitone away from the correct one....(Miles Davis)

  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwigeo View Post
    In a nut shell......fret positions are calculated assuming a fixed and known scale length between the nut and saddle. Unfortunately as soon as you fret a string you stretch the string and change it's scale length. This is the reason compensation of some sort is required on a fretted stringed instrument to end up with an instrument that has correct intonation...ie it plays "in tune" no matter what note is fretted. On an acoustic you also get body resonances which can affect intonation.....a problem not usually present on electrics.

    The most common approach to correcting the intonation on an acoustic guitar is to apply a bulk compensation at he saddle.....on a steel string this is why the saddle is on a slant (max compensation on the bass side, less on treble side). On a nylon string the bulk compensation is handled by moving the whole saddle back from theoretical scale length position by a few mm. On most electrics the individual saddles are moved aft from theoretical scale length by the appropriate amount to achieve "correct" intonation. In all cases the correct amount of compensation is most commonly arrived at by comparing the 12th fret fretted note with the harmonic generated at the same fret and adjusting compensation until both the notes are the same.

    Once all the above has been achieved you will generally have an instrument that is correctly intonated above the 12th fret and immediately nut side of same. However once you get down to the first to third frets the intonation will start to wander (notes will be noticeably sharp). This happens because the compensation added at the saddle improves the intonation for fretted notes but this compensation is not needed on open strings. Players tune the open strings to true pitch so you end up with the lower frets producing notes that are sharp.

    How to fix the intonation issues close to the nut?......you can cut about 3mm short of the theoretical "zero fret" position and leave it at that (some classical builders do just this) or you can do the latter and also install a compensated nut. The theory is straight forward but calculating how much nut compensation to apply to each string is where it can get tricky. I do it using a string jig......basically its a mock up of the fretboard of the instrument I'm working on....same strings, same 12th fret action, same string height at 1st fret and in the case of steel strings I simulate neck relief as well. The jig has a moveable saddle with a pizeo pickup that I plug into my laptop which is running a frequency meter application. The jig also has a moveable nut. I first move the saddle back until I get the 12th fret fretted note and harmonic the same and I note the distance I have to move the saddle back from theoretical scale length.. I then finger the 2nd fret and compare the actual frequency of the note with the theoretical frequency. I move the dummy nut forward until the two frequencies are the same and note the distance from front of dummy nut to theoretical zero fret position...this then becomes the amount of nut compensation I apply on the instrument.

    Of course before delving into instrument compensation you have to decide how far you want to go with it. Most people are happy with the bulk compensation applied at the saddle end on an acoustic or the string saddles on an electric. However there are many

    Guitar building...for the luthier a wonderful mix of compromises and stuff that makes less sense the more you think about it
    Well, I had to read this a few times for it to sink in. Having played guitar since I was 8 or 9 years old, this is the first time I'd ever heard of the subject. It all makes sense now. I must one of those unfortunates who pick up intonation that's slightly out when fingering in the first few frets. I've always had the problem of tuning (whether with a tuning fork, electronic tuner, harmonics) and then hearing that either or both the G or B is slightly out. Others I've played, jammed with always reckoned I was being too fussy. Maybe it doesn't matter if you're pounding out thrash trash or punk.
    looks like I'll be getting into compensation in my next project. Any source of how to make the duver that gets plugged into an app that measures what needs to be adjusted?
    Cheers and thanks for the info mate.
    Mike
    PS. I recall my first guitar back in 1960 or 61 was an acoustic, F hole Harmony made in the USA (paid my rip off dad 20 pounds for it) and it had a fret about an eight of an inch in front of the nut. Now I know why it was there. Don't know now whether it was original or added by a previous (knowledgeable) owner
    If you never made a mistake, you never made anything!


  12. #11
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    Default What is a cent?

    I keep coming across the term, "cent" in researching fretting. What is a cent? Is meant to represent percentage as in "1/10th of a cent"? Does it mean 10%?
    Please enlighten me (or as the Red Terror says,'please explain?'.
    If you never made a mistake, you never made anything!


  13. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shedhand View Post
    Fretting??? I found this if anyone is interested.
    Cheers
    dear everyone
    I am a newer on this forum,I don't know how to post new message on it?
    can you help me?
    thank you very much.

    best regards
    yumiko

  14. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shedhand View Post
    I keep coming across the term, "cent" in researching fretting. What is a cent? Is meant to represent percentage as in "1/10th of a cent"? Does it mean 10%?
    Please enlighten me (or as the Red Terror says,'please explain?'.
    All explained here rather than me giving you a run down: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cent_%28music%29.

    For the compensation calculations a tuner (physical or software) that can read out in cents is handy. I use Peterson's Strobosoft running on a Windows laptop for my measurements. Input to the computer from the string jig is via a K and K undersaddle pickup and a pre-amp unit. For tap tuning work I mic the guitar back or side with a Shure SM58 mic..again via the pre-amp to boost the signal if necessary.

    Ill put up a photo of the string jig when I get a chance.
    Whatever note you blow youre never more than a semitone away from the correct one....(Miles Davis)

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