Thread: Interesting comment from Vai.

Originally Posted by byacey

Tap tuning is sort of a offshoot cult in violin making, some advocates say that the chinrest, fingerboard, tailpiece , etc. can all be tap tuned. What they don't tell you specifically is the desirable pitch for these different fittings. usually on a violin plate there are specific tone intervals that the tuning revolves around. As for the rest of it, I haven't seen any convincing demonstrations.

I think that's because there isn't necessarily a desirable pitch. What's important is that the whole doesn't fight against itself. So you try to tune the components so that when they vibrate they vibrate as one. That's the theory, and I believe I have had some success in tuning tailpieces on my basses. In terms of the plate tuning, I use the modes 1, 2 & 5 to measure flexibility for future reference and determine thicknesses to some extent, and "tapping" to ensure even-ness across the plate. But in violin family instruments (and guitar family instruments - why not?) I don't think there is anything other that hunch that says the top plate has to be symmetrical!

Originally Posted by R3R

i have seen and heard electric guitars made of mdf on tdpri, synthetic materials by quite a few makers, and also wood

i have seen pics of a granite guitar ...and also guitar with 6 necks and a massive body

alas i have not heard them

those that i have heard... all sound like electric guitars ...they would not certainly be mistaken for a tuba for instance

the onus of proof would surely be on the one making the assertion espc in something so specific as a construction recipe for 'producing optimal tone' ?!

well

just as happenstance would have it

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFyQXy74xz4"]YouTube - Impossible Guitar: Concrete Block & Piezo[/ame]

guitar with a concrete block body

Nice one....a picture says a thousand words

Originally Posted by R3R

well

just as happenstance would have it

YouTube - Impossible Guitar: Concrete Block & Piezo

guitar with a concrete block body

Which brings me back to a thread earlier that was a hot topic, tap tone, wood species and how important they are. Well, as i said in that topic, it doesn't matter what type/species of wood you use to build a guitar, it comes down to the pickups and the amp you have. For acoustic/electric guitars ...same. So really, this video demonstrates the useless pursuit of exotic wood to build a guitar, unless it's going to be an acoustic or classical guitar without pickups, of course.

Right, so you'd be better off using MDF and spending your hard earned dollars on damn good pickups. I'm off to Bunnings. Puzzle solved.

I beg to differ Ghostguitarist on your comments below.
And its not just because I sell tonewoods for a living. I have spoke to allot of luthiers over the years including some of the best, Wood effect's tone thats what they have all have told me even in electric guitars. If this was not the case just buy MDF Chipboard, Blocks of Concrete and give them a nice sunburst of paint lets see how many you sell.
Now I agree the wood is not as importent in electric as it is in acoustic but it still makes a difference.
Cheers Bob

Originally Posted by GhostGuitarist

Which brings me back to a thread earlier that was a hot topic, tap tone, wood species and how important they are. Well, as i said in that topic, it doesn't matter what type/species of wood you use to build a guitar, it comes down to the pickups and the amp you have. For acoustic/electric guitars ...same. So really, this video demonstrates the useless pursuit of exotic wood to build a guitar, unless it's going to be an acoustic or classical guitar without pickups, of course.

Right, so you'd be better off using MDF and spending your hard earned dollars on damn good pickups. I'm off to Bunnings. Puzzle solved.

Originally Posted by GhostGuitarist

Which brings me back to a thread earlier that was a hot topic, tap tone, wood species and how important they are. Well, as i said in that topic, it doesn't matter what type/species of wood you use to build a guitar, it comes down to the pickups and the amp you have. For acoustic/electric guitars ...same. So really, this video demonstrates the useless pursuit of exotic wood to build a guitar, unless it's going to be an acoustic or classical guitar without pickups, of course.

Right, so you'd be better off using MDF and spending your hard earned dollars on damn good pickups. I'm off to Bunnings. Puzzle solved.

well

there are certain qualties of certain woods (let alone exotic which have greater range of marketable attributes) that will make them superior in the context of guitars and parts of guitars to synthetic materials and not all (even if any) of these attributes have to do with 'tone'

the proof of the pudding lies in understanding the notion called market viability

and there is more to market viability of guitars (espc electric) than merely 'tone' imo

So you walk into a music store. 4 of the same electric guitars hanging on the wall. All have the same strings, hardware, finish, pickups etc. you plug them all into the same amp, yet they all sound different... Is it not the wood that makes this difference?

David Myka from Myka guitars is spot on the money with this quote in my opinion.

"all the little things that i do in the wood working and the chambering and the design of it all contribute to its acoustic sound. The process of chambering them is something that is unique to each instrument. Even an eighth of an inch of depth on the chambering is going to make a significant impact on the overall tone. The minimum depth of chambering could be an eighth of an inch deep, and all that does is removes the contact of the body wood from the sound board, and that alone will allow it to open up a bit more."

I think there is a significant influence in solid body guitars by the tone wood used. I don't think the issue is what tone woods more important for acoustic and electric building, i think its the way the instrument is constructed to get the tone out of the timber.

Originally Posted by GhostGuitarist

For acoustic/electric guitars ...same. So really, this video demonstrates the useless pursuit of exotic wood to build a guitar, unless it's going to be an acoustic or classical guitar without pickups, of course.

Wood a big factor in acoustics _with_ pickups as well...especially if the pickup system is a pad type system attached to the bridge plate (K and K). a 1-2mm thick vibrating top on an acoustic must affect the sound produced by the pickup system. Much less so on a solid body electric guitar with a thick slab of wood under the pickups.

Right on Deano,
So according to Ghostguitarist all the top luthiers that build solid body guitars using wood are full of S..T
Cheers Bob

Originally Posted by Deano

So you walk into a music store. 4 of the same electric guitars hanging on the wall. All have the same strings, hardware, finish, pickups etc. you plug them all into the same amp, yet they all sound different... Is it not the wood that makes this difference?

David Myka from Myka guitars is spot on the money with this quote in my opinion.

"all the little things that i do in the wood working and the chambering and the design of it all contribute to its acoustic sound. The process of chambering them is something that is unique to each instrument. Even an eighth of an inch of depth on the chambering is going to make a significant impact on the overall tone. The minimum depth of chambering could be an eighth of an inch deep, and all that does is removes the contact of the body wood from the sound board, and that alone will allow it to open up a bit more."

I think there is a significant influence in solid body guitars by the tone wood used. I don't think the issue is what tone woods more important for acoustic and electric building, i think its the way the instrument is constructed to get the tone out of the timber.

Originally Posted by Deano

David Myka from Myka guitars is spot on the money with this quote in my opinion.

"all the little things that i do in the wood working and the chambering and the design of it all contribute to its acoustic sound. The process of chambering them is something that is unique to each instrument. Even an eighth of an inch of depth on the chambering is going to make a significant impact on the overall tone. The minimum depth of chambering could be an eighth of an inch deep, and all that does is removes the contact of the body wood from the sound board, and that alone will allow it to open up a bit more."

I think there is a significant influence in solid body guitars by the tone wood used. I don't think the issue is what tone woods more important for acoustic and electric building, i think its the way the instrument is constructed to get the tone out of the timber.

You should make a distinction between a solid body and a chambered body electric guitar. You can't use the terms "solid body" and "soundboard" to describe the same instrument....if an instrument has a soundboard then it can't be solid.

I'll agree that wood may contribute something to the sound of a solid body guitar but its far eclipsed by the electrics of the instrument. In a chambered electric the equation probably changes a bit but the electrics would still be a significant contributer to the instruments sound.

I may do my own experimentation when I build my first electric but right now Im just having toooooo much fun making acoustics.

Originally Posted by woodturner777

Right on Deano,
So according to Ghostguitarist all the top luthiers that build solid body guitars using wood are full of S..T
Cheers Bob

to be fair to ghostguitarist, i dunt see that he/she is implying tht ...let alone saying it

i get the feeling ghostguitarist is exasperated by the confusion arising from opinions regarding 'tone' and how 'tone' is generated/produced with respect to materials

let's not forget all this arose from the comment of Steve Vai which asserts tht the 'optimal tone' is derived from constructing the neck and body from the same piece of timber due to 'freqeuncy cancelling thingamajigs' when using disparate materials (his theory ...not mine)

my points in all of this has been

1. that any assertion be 'proven' at least in a minimal manner ... make at least one guitar according to assertion and record something with it and stun the wurld

without even one iteration of an experiment, why should anybody believe the assertion no matter how logical sounding it appears to be?

2. there is more to manufactured items than function

there is also form

the appeal of manufactured items is usually a combination of both form and function

after the function component has been adequately addressed, what do ppl think customers base their purchasing decisions on?!

so, then one of the question ought to be, what is the actual function of a guitar?

is it to produce the 'optimal tone' or a tone that can be manipulated by the artist so he/she can sound optimal?!

and in such a scenario, is there going to be a rigid, objective notion of 'optimal' ?

3. on the subject of form....

will synthetic materials ever rival the 'appeal' of beautiful wood?! espc in the appearance dept ?

are there wood tables tht are in 5 or 6 figures? are they equivalent mdf tables like tht? why?

Hi R3R, Ghostguitarist words below, if Ghostguitarist want to build a solid body guitar out of wood and then one out of a block of concrete and then let a room full of luthiers and musicians see if there is any differance in tone, then we will hear what to believe.
Anyone want to buy exotic tasmanian MDF & Concrete please pm.
Cheers Bob




this video demonstrates the useless pursuit of exotic wood to build a guitar, unless it's going to be an acoustic or classical guitar without pickups, of course.

Right, so you'd be better off using MDF and spending your hard earned dollars on damn good pickups. I'm off to Bunnings. Puzzle solved.[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by woodturner777

Hi R3R, Ghostguitarist words below, if Ghostguitarist want to build a solid body guitar out of wood and then one out of a block of concrete and then let a room full of luthiers and musicians see if there is any differance in tone, then we will hear what to believe.
Anyone want to buy exotic tasmanian MDF & Concrete please pm.
Cheers Bob




this video demonstrates the useless pursuit of exotic wood to build a guitar, unless it's going to be an acoustic or classical guitar without pickups, of course.

Right, so you'd be better off using MDF and spending your hard earned dollars on damn good pickups. I'm off to Bunnings. Puzzle solved.

[/QUOTE]

well Bob, i take all comments on internet forums with salt n pepper and my tasting of the words above dont lead me to the conclusions that you appear to have drawn from those words

in any case, i like to think there is room for all in the big wide world of instrument making because not every artist is going to be the same and most if not all aspire to achieve some sort of unique 'voice' which allows instrument makers to veer off to one path or another

if you heard the music from the video of the concrete guitar before watching it, would you have believed a concrete guitar to be capable of such a 'voice' with or without pickups?

Hi R3R, I played the Video of the concrete guitar, I try not to make comments before I reply, but some times like all humans I do make mistakes.
But I was not in the room when this Video was made so for all I know it could be a piece of exotic wood made to look like a lump of concrete.
Cheers Bob