Thread: Interesting comment from Vai.

I doubt it.

Tap an accoustic neck then tap the back and sides then tap the top. You'll get quite different sounds.

There is considerable debate amongst renowned luthiers on the value of tap tuning at all. Torres made the point quite clear but making a guitar mainly from paper mache, but using a really nice top.

On a solid body yes the construction contributes to the sound, everything matters, but the pickups and strings trump everything massively.

There are plenty of essays online and the mimf forum etc. Lots of good reading on guitar construction and design. It's not a simple problem, if it were we would have solved it

For electric guitars he's spot on the money, not in terms so much of tone but certainly natural sustain.....you might have a body that rings like big ben, but if you bolt a solid dead lump of a neck on it, you'll kill it......thats for sure. Vibration or sustain runs the length of the guitar, no point if the vibration hits a brick wall at the neck. Just seems to make sense.

I don't see why an acoustic should be any different.

Tap the top, tap the back etc and get different tones...!!! But is that really the best situation. I mean..yeah you can fret three or four notes on a guitar in random and it still sounds a tone, but the tone sounds much better if the tones work together. ie...a chord.

Your talking about harmony there not sustain, nor harmonics really. Re read what you have said he said:

If you are looking for overall tonal quality and sustain, especially sustain ,build the body and the neck from the same piece of wood

That states unambigiously that a neck through should sustain longer than a set neck or a bolt neck, especially where the bolt neck is of two different timbers. He also states unambiguiously that better tone results from one piece of wood.

Better tone is a matter of personal taste for a start but even if you established a criteria for it you could prove that statement wrong.

if you are not able to do that you might want to consider tapping half a dozen necks to see if you have one that matches the body, or vice-versa."

In this case "matches" is an ambigious term. Sounds the same ? sound "complimentary" ?

"Tap the body....tap the neck....does the tone of the wood match? are they similar...? will they work 'together' of cancel each other out or clash badly?....see where I'm coming from....!!!"

Ever tapped the neck and body on a strat ? Maybe you think a strat sounds awful, but quite a few people would not agree.

They are not famous for sustain of course, but I contend I could build you a through neck that sounds like <insert your own description>.

There are waay too many variables and objectives in guitar building. Even within the very narrow field of classical building there are various and quite divergent approaches. I know I keep talking about accoustics, I know more about them, but the principle is the same even if the technicalities aren't.

If Mr Vai was correct all high end guitars would be neck throughs. Simple as that. It's like saying blackwood is the best material to make electric guitars out of, and every high end electric guitar shold be blackwood. There is a widespread concensus that koa makes a spectacular sounding solid body, nicer than mahogany. Koa has become rare lately and blackwood is both a close relative and very similar in sound. I am not about to bet fender will ditch ash, alder, maple and bolt neck construction and switch to blackwood neck through solid bodies. Nor gibson carvin or anyone else.

He's entitled to his opinion, and I am a great advocate of guitar players having whatever guitar makes them happy, but a one size fits all belief system I find unappealing.

2c.

"If you are looking for overall tonal quality and sustain, especially sustain ,build the body and the neck from the same piece of wood, if you are not able to do that you might want to consider tapping half a dozen necks to see if you have one that matches the body, or vice-versa."

"Tap the body....tap the neck....does the tone of the wood match? are they similar...? will they work 'together' of cancel each other out or clash badly?....see where I'm coming from....!!!"

I would disagree, That seems a rather simplistic general statement. I would suggest that if you want to create exceptional sustain on an electric, the neck and body should be very dense, hardwood. If you make an electric guitar from a softwood body and a softwood neck, they will indeed be matched woods, but the sustain will be lost due to the wood absorbing the energy from the ends of the moving strings. The ends of the strings no longer are a nodal point with theoretical zero movement because the wave is continuing past the nut and bridge into the neck and body, where it's sapping energy from the string. Concrete has been shown to yield an instrument with great sustain, but of course would be impractical for playing. Different hardwoods yield different timbres due to the absorbtion of various harmonic overtones of the strings. In general though, the greater the specific gravity, the better the sustain.

Tapping is fine for identifying localized tuning differences within the same piece of wood, but to expect to match tap tones between two pieces of wood cut to different physical dimensions is as effective as chasing rainbows.

Originally Posted by damian

There is considerable debate amongst renowned luthiers on the value of tap tuning at all. Torres made the point quite clear but making a guitar mainly from paper mache, but using a really nice top.

Torres wasn't testing tap tuning with his famous paper mache guitar. I think youll find he built it to prove that the top is the part of a guitar that contributes most to the instrument's volume.

Originally Posted by byacey

I would disagree, That seems a rather simplistic general statement. I would suggest that if you want to create exceptional sustain on an electric, the neck and body should be very dense, hardwood.

I agree.....density of the neck wood is a major decider on sustain in an acoustic and I'd say also in electrics although I have not personally tested the latter. Ive built classicals with mahogany and spanish cedar necks and the mahogany necked instruments had more sustain.

Interesting comment from you Martin.
Now this is a question I would like to ask you, you say that the top is the part of the guitar that contributes the most to the instruments volume. Known fact I totally agree.
Now there is a species of Eucalyptus very slow growing and so dense, Would this work for a soundboard.?
Cheers Bob

Originally Posted by kiwigeo

Torres wasn't testing tap tuning with his famous paper mache guitar. I think youll find he built it to prove that the top is the part of a guitar that contributes most to the instrument's volume.

Hardwood does not work well for soundboards. A softwood with high stiffness to density ratio will yield a good soundboard for an acoustic guitar, violin, piano, hammered dulcimer, etc.

i have always been an admirer of Steve Vai's technical prowess but i always thought his guitars were typically maple neck with r/w fingerboards + basswood body?!

moreover, his sound tends to go through racks and racks of FX stuff ...even when 'clean', one can characterise the sound as clearly 'processed'

where does all this fit with his statement that the body and neck ought to be made from same piece of timber let alone same species? and how does 'tap tone' translate from a rough timber blank to actual tonal characteristics once all pieces are glued up/attached?

there appears to be an implication that 1 + 1 = 2 when it comes to making a musical instrument...

ie discrete parts characteristics sum up logically to the characteristics of a WHOLE once those discrete parts are 'put together' as the WHOLE

is there REALLY such a neat formula at work i wunda?

Rick Turner built a mandolin using Eucalyptus as a soundboard that i supplied last year, and it sounded great and he liked it.
Cheers Bob

Originally Posted by byacey

Hardwood does not work well for soundboards. A softwood with high stiffness to density ratio will yield a good soundboard for an acoustic guitar, violin, piano, hammered dulcimer, etc.

Hi Bob,

Im a fairly conservative builder and build very much to the rule "light and stiff" as far as my top woods go. I dont think a dense eucalypt wood wouldnt meet that rule. I use Englemann, Sitka and Lutz on all my builds with Lutz being my favourite. I do have some Huon and King Billy but havent yet used same on an instrument.



Cheers Martin

Originally Posted by woodturner777

Interesting comment from you Martin.
Now this is a question I would like to ask you, you say that the top is the part of the guitar that contributes the most to the instruments volume. Known fact I totally agree.
Now there is a species of Eucalyptus very slow growing and so dense, Would this work for a soundboard.?
Cheers Bob

Tap tones are useful as long as you have a handle on the significance of what youre hearing in terms of the sound of the finished instrument. Free plate tuning will produce a set of results but as soon as the top is attached to the sides of an instrument things start to change.

I understand Martin, what you are saying the eucalyptus I am talking about sure is not light.
Regards Bob

Originally Posted by R3R

i have always been an admirer of Steve Vai's technical prowess but i always thought his guitars were typically maple neck with r/w fingerboards + basswood body?!

moreover, his sound tends to go through racks and racks of FX stuff ...even when 'clean', one can characterise the sound as clearly 'processed'

where does all this fit with his statement that the body and neck ought to be made from same piece of timber let alone same species? and how does 'tap tone' translate from a rough timber blank to actual tonal characteristics once all pieces are glued up/attached?

there appears to be an implication that 1 + 1 = 2 when it comes to making a musical instrument...

ie discrete parts characteristics sum up logically to the characteristics of a WHOLE once those discrete parts are 'put together' as the WHOLE

is there REALLY such a neat formula at work i wunda?

So there we have it, the answers seem defined. A solid body electric guitar, unless played clean through an amp, could be made of just about anything because after applying several effects, it doesn't matter if it's chip board, ply or paper mache'.

I think a lot of testing would need to be done to either prove or disprove Vai's thoughts. Simply saying it doesn't make sense, just doesn't make sense.

Next problem that needs to be dimissed to keep life (and cost) as is...is

Paul Guy's, True Temperament Fretting System....because now we know there's a better way, thats how we'll do it from now on...right..??....Remeber this system is not a theory or thought....there's proof that it is the best way of doing it...but not the easiest or cheapest, there in, I think ,will be the problem.