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  1. #16
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    Barry that's probably a good name for it (Gold). The best soundboard quality Fir that i've seen anywhere recently has been for sale on Oregon Wild Woods.

    Steve

    P.S. Not affiliated in any way at all with OWW as mentioned above.

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  3. #17
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    Looks great Barry, it is good to see a luthier thats willing to be different.
    regards Bob



    Quote Originally Posted by Baz1000 View Post
    This instrument was born from the amazing research done by John McLennan. Music Acoustics, Physics, UNSWmclennan.html , and in particular, one essay http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/music/pu...nan/fholes.pdf that stirred my creative juices. This essay concludes by suggesting that the violin may benefit from substituting "slits" for the "F" Holes and placing a sound hole under the finger board. He added that this would be a development that "few would welcome," meaning that a departure from the "traditional" would not be accepted by the establishment.

    The reasoning behind John's "throw away line" was that the slits could provide an increased free plate area around the bridge area to augment the vibration of the bridge and bass bar. This logic struck me as something that needed to be tested.

    The result is an instrument with power across all strings and a consistent tone. Blowing vigorously across the sound hole to produce a Hemholtz resonance excites the "D " string. However, at 50 mm diameter, the sound hole is a little too large. A two litre violin, according to John's research, would require a sound hole around 1375 square mm. So, I have another project on the bench that will have an elliptical sound hole and with slits that don't follow the "C" bout line, but slits parallel to the centreline. Stay tuned.Attachment 255668Attachment 255669Attachment 255670

  4. #18
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    Just to give some perspective on how conservitive the " Violin " world is, anything not made of Spruce and Maple is considered radical. The " Fiddle " world is more accomadating but is still pretty straight- laced. So it's a pretty tough crowd. The funny thing is it would only take a few leaders to embrace something new and everybody would want one.

  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ball Peen View Post
    Just to give some perspective on how conservitive the " Violin " world is, anything not made of Spruce and Maple is considered radical. The " Fiddle " world is more accomadating but is still pretty straight- laced. So it's a pretty tough crowd. The funny thing is it would only take a few leaders to embrace something new and everybody would want one.
    Never a truer word spoken! And the greatest impediment to change is commercial imperative. We've been so busy copying Stradivari and his mates for the last 300 years that we have forgotten to advance the violin into modernity. Don't get me wrong, the traditional shape is gorgeous. I just think there is room for another perspective. As far as the violin is concerned, the creative process stopped in 1737 when Stradivari died.

    Hey Bob, thanks for the encouragement. I'm in such a minority, I feel a little bit lonely

  6. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baz1000 View Post
    Never a truer word spoken! And the greatest impediment to change is commercial imperative. We've been so busy copying Stradivari and his mates for the last 300 years that we have forgotten to advance the violin into modernity. Don't get me wrong, the traditional shape is gorgeous. I just think there is room for another perspective. As far as the violin is concerned, the creative process stopped in 1737 when Stradivari died.

    Hey Bob, thanks for the encouragement. I'm in such a minority, I feel a little bit lonely
    If you check my links in the last post you'll find some good company. And then there's the electric violin crowd, and Steinberger et al. These things do sell, they sell well and the sell for lots.

    I suppose your market are people who want a traditional violin that looks like a traditional guitar. But if it works, it'll catch on.

    I have several albums by David Darling who plays an 8 string electric cello, and has been doing so for ages. The other week I saw a snare drum mounted inside another snare drum and it sounded awesome.

    I was listening to Philip Glass on Big Ideas last week and he made the comment about visual art moving so much faster than music, being radical and experimental by its very nature. Whereas people are so conservative about music. That's why all his fans and supporters were from the visual arts. You're certainly not alone, experimenters are everywhere, I only wish your violin were more experimental, cos classical guitars haven't changed all that much either and they could do with some improvement. Or maybe that's just guitarists I'm thinking of.

  7. #21
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    Iit is good to see a luthier that dares to be different, where some not all luthiers stick with tradition and believe that the old ways are the only way, thank god not every one is this way, or we would still be living in the dark ages.
    Cheers, Bob
    Last edited by RETIRED; 2nd Apr 2013 at 10:55 PM.

  8. #22
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    G'day Barry, nice work on that instrument. This may all be old news to you but I will say it anyway. If you are familiar with the work that Greg Smallman has done with classical guitars then you will know that although the look of his guitars is not different from the standard that has gone before, the tone as well as volume and projection of his instruments are a radical departure from the early masters. His instruments are being accepted into that (perceived as conservative) world.

    I scanned over those links you provided in your first post to this thread and noticed that Gilet Guitars got a mention as one of the "Laboratories industrial supporters". T. Gore and G Gilet have published a set of books called Contemporary Acoustic Guitar Design and Build which, if you have not come across yet I think that you would find them very interesting. Parts of the book give you simple, fast and accurate methods of calculating the Young's Modulus of individual pieces of wood using spectrum analysis.

    The Australian and New Zealand Luthiers forum has a sub section devoted to answering questions pertaining to the books and T.Gore is very generous with his time in answering those questions. Here is a link to that section Australian/New Zealand Luthiers Forum • View forum - Contemporary Acoustic Guitar Design and Build - Trevor Gore and Gerard Gilet

    It was suggested in this thread that as you are departing from the standard look of the violin that you could push that look even more radically and I wonder if you have considered the opposite, that is to work your designs into something more usual looking but still achieve the results you are after tonally. Like you may still have to add that sound hole and flat top but would it be possible to maintain the typical violin shape rather than using a guitar shape.

    Jim

  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarwinStrings View Post
    G'day Barry, nice work on that instrument. This may all be old news to you but I will say it anyway. If you are familiar with the work that Greg Smallman has done with classical guitars then you will know that although the look of his guitars is not different from the standard that has gone before, the tone as well as volume and projection of his instruments are a radical departure from the early masters. His instruments are being accepted into that (perceived as conservative) world.

    I scanned over those links you provided in your first post to this thread and noticed that Gilet Guitars got a mention as one of the "Laboratories industrial supporters". T. Gore and G Gilet have published a set of books called Contemporary Acoustic Guitar Design and Build which, if you have not come across yet I think that you would find them very interesting. Parts of the book give you simple, fast and accurate methods of calculating the Young's Modulus of individual pieces of wood using spectrum analysis.

    The Australian and New Zealand Luthiers forum has a sub section devoted to answering questions pertaining to the books and T.Gore is very generous with his time in answering those questions. Here is a link to that section Australian/New Zealand Luthiers Forum • View forum - Contemporary Acoustic Guitar Design and Build - Trevor Gore and Gerard Gilet

    It was suggested in this thread that as you are departing from the standard look of the violin that you could push that look even more radically and I wonder if you have considered the opposite, that is to work your designs into something more usual looking but still achieve the results you are after tonally. Like you may still have to add that sound hole and flat top but would it be possible to maintain the typical violin shape rather than using a guitar shape.

    Jim
    Jim, thanks for that. Yes, Greg is definitely a revolutionary, a very private individual, something like myself. Although recluse is probably a more appropriate description for me. And thanks for the link. The other similarity with Greg is that my experimentation is open for anyone to try. Patents are expensive and ruled by commercial imperative, not something that is part of my makeup.

    On your last paragraph, this design may look like it departs from the traditional but in fact, the shape is exactly the same but without the "corners". The reason I have eliminated the corners is for expediency and practicality. And that is not new. Cornerless violins have been around for two hundred years, and contrary to some popular belief, corners on violins are superfluous and inhibit vibration.

    Handmade instruments are expensive, so anything to hasten the process can make it more affordable for students to get their hands on an instrument. The other obvious difference is binding instead of purfling, also for expediency. However, I won't be holding my breath waiting for the customers to bang on my door. Tradition in the violin world is a tough nut to crack. On the other hand, my reasons for experimenting are not to revolutionise violinmaking, but to add another dimension to the thinking.

  10. #24
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    Baz, Im not a violin builder so its all a bit foreign to me as a guitar builder. Just because Im not posting doesnt mean I'm not taking in all that's being said by others. My niece is a violinist and is bugging me to make her a fiddle....Id like to make her something a bit different so this thread is of great interest to me.

  11. #25
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    Baz, I am neither a musician or a luthier, but I am amazed at those experimental violins, would love to hear them played.

  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Shed View Post
    ...

    Baz, I am neither a musician or a luthier, but I am amazed at those experimental violins, would love to hear them played.
    Me too


    Quote Originally Posted by Baz1000 View Post
    ...However, it has been proven time and time again through blind and double blind tests that modern instruments are at least the equal of Stradivari et al.

    By making violins that depart from the traditional shape and specification (accepted norms) while understanding that they sound just as good will be a mission shrouded in subjectivity. I would love to put one of my violins in the hands of a very good but blindfolded player to get a reaction.
    Baz

    I've a friend who studied at the Sydney Conservatorium a few years ago, ok quite a few. Plays voilin in various quartets etc. Interestingly, she received an electric voilin for her last birthday. She maybe interested in your double blind test, only problem is that she now resides in Melbourne. If you like I can ask if she's interested.
    regards
    Nick
    veni, vidi,
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    Without wood it's just ...

  13. #27
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    Thanks guys. It's a shame that this thread was hijacked. I really do feel there is foundation for a meaningful discussion related to John McLennan's important work on the acoustics of the violin now that someone has chosen to test his findings by building instruments with those findings in mind.

    Now that I've made several versions of the instruments above, I can truthfully say that I am confident of a significant contribution to the increase in power that can be repeated in every subsequent instrument.

    It is a recognised fact that the one thing the Old Italians had in common was that every instrument they made was different, especially in the graduations of the plates. This phenomenon has been explained away by so-called experts by saying that each piece of wood is different, so they change the graduations when "tuning" the plates. Convenient explanations always follow the honey pot, and that is all I need to say on that.

    The reason I say I can repeat the result with consistency is because a flat belly and its attributes (slits, soundholes, bracing) can be reproduced much more easily than a carved belly, except in a factory environment with CNC reproductions. Not going there!

    Anyway, the proof of the puddin' is in the eating, so the second instrument in this thread is on its way to Armidale later this week where a Phd in Music Performance (Violin) will make a video for Youtube where I hope it will be tested against a Derazey (Well known French maker) and a Lupot (famous French maker). It may take a while, but when I have the link, I'll post it. I think you may be surprised.

  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sawdust Maker View Post
    Me too




    Baz

    I've a friend who studied at the Sydney Conservatorium a few years ago, ok quite a few. Plays voilin in various quartets etc. Interestingly, she received an electric voilin for her last birthday. She maybe interested in your double blind test, only problem is that she now resides in Melbourne. If you like I can ask if she's interested.

    When it comes back from the current arrangement, I'd be only too pleased to communicate with her. Thanks a lot for that.

  15. #29
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    Hi Baz,

    Interesting thread, Just as Trevor and Gerrard have changed the face of Australian Guitars , I think your design could become the new aussie standard for Violins , with resources becoming more scarce , the Idea of a material conservative flat top and back Violin is fantastic, I guess my question is , will you be selling plans ............. cause I'd love to make one of those. Congratulations on being brave enough to take on tradition and having the courage to have it tested and reveiwed , when your done I'm sure , just like Trevor Design lots of people would like to make a Barry Guest Violin.

    Cheers,

    Paul.

  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozywood View Post
    Hi Baz,

    Interesting thread, Just as Trevor and Gerrard have changed the face of Australian Guitars , I think your design could become the new aussie standard for Violins , with resources becoming more scarce , the Idea of a material conservative flat top and back Violin is fantastic, I guess my question is , will you be selling plans ............. cause I'd love to make one of those. Congratulations on being brave enough to take on tradition and having the courage to have it tested and reveiwed , when your done I'm sure , just like Trevor Design lots of people would like to make a Barry Guest Violin.

    Cheers,

    Paul.
    Paul,

    I don't know if I deserve your accolades Paul, but I'd be happy to give you the schematics and info on my instrument. I'm not in this to make my first million. There is no patent and no restrictions, so if you want to try this design, please go for it.
    If I can advance the prospects of students by enabling them to get their hands on a hand made instrument, then I've accomplished part of what I set out to do, and that is to make HAND MADE violins more accessible by a more expedient construction.

    The other thing I set out to do was to prove part of John Mclennan's research to be pertinent to all violin makers, that the traditional design is NOT the only way the violin can be voiced. To my way of thinking, the sound produced of any instrument should be the benchmark by which it is judged, not the bee sting or the excellence of carving in a scroll.

    If you want the design Paul, please email me and we will talk about it. However, there is one more chapter to this little story. I have another instrument on the bench which will be the final experiment in the sequence of four instruments. Stay tuned.

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