Thread: Hybrid Possible?

Anything is possible Os but how they play and sound may be a different matter. Nothing wrong with a narrower neck and i'm keen on radiussed f/boards myself (not so much of a culture shock when swapping from SS)
My partner and daughter both like the standard body shape of a Nylon string but not the neck width.. disclaimer neither play in classical style.
Check out Planetary tuning pegs too. Bracing patterns are often changed and....well thats enough for starters and remember beauty is in the eyes and ears of the beholder.

Steve

P.S Definitely build it, the purists will hate it but we'll love it.

Thanks Steve,

Yeah I'm with you, I'll build it and if worse comes to worst, it'll hang on the wall as a decoration. Apart from playability, she only seems to be interested in pretty inlays. I made up the templates this arvo and dug out some cedar soundboard that's been kicking around for a while. I had some back and side sets delivered last week and plenty of neck material and bracing so might as well just go for it. It's all about learning, eh? I figured that I'd do it as I'm starting an oversize acoustic bass so can build them in parallel If (when?) I get in strife with the bass, I'll start another thread begging for help!!

Os

Well I would not recommend steelstring tuners because with the smaller post size and the greater stretch of nylon strings, they will be a pain to use and accumulate excessive wraps around the post by the time the strings stabilize. I would recommend good quality standard tuners or the geared "pegheds" that Steve mentioned.
Standard nut width on a Classical is generally 52 and you do need a bit of space to play cleanly with the thicker strings, 48 is probably as narrow as I would go.
The lowest you can really go on action is Flamenco height 3mm Bass to 2.5mm treble at the 12th and you can generally expect a little buzz with this if played agressively.
You will need to pay careful attention to neck angle, dome height, fretboard thickness and bridge design to achieve this. Most classicals cannot be lowered to this height without break angle problems.
A 14 fret neck join is not impossible, but does tend to place the bridge in an unfavourable position for sound production.
My last two builds (SS and Nylon) used 13 fret necks and i found this to be a great way to go.
You can see them in action here
http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffhigh2/videos
The nylon is used on "Taste of Honey " and "Suicide is Painless"

Sounds like she is asking for a 14 fret 000 or 00. I would look at the respective sizes of those, and get appropriate plans, and then build to the plan.

Actually, reading this she still wants nylon strings? My memory is that 000 and 00 guitars have both been strung with nylon strings over the years. I have played old 000's with a classical style peghead too.

Sounds simple enough, joining to the body at the 14th is pretty standard, being an acoustic you will need a truss rod in the neck, to combat the steel strings, if your going to use nylons then you dont need the truss rod, a lower action just means more attention to detail on your fret work / nut heights and saddle heights, but you will still be limited becuase nylons need more room to vibrate

Thanks all.
Good point about standard tuners Jeff, I'll look into the tuning pegs but the only ones I know of are the ones they use on banjos etc. or the tapered wooden version from violin/cello/bass. I imagine the banjo type would present the same issue. I can see from the Utube vids that even the 23 fret body join has moved the bridge toward the soundhole a fair bit. Doesn't seem to have effected the tone too much though - sounds really great.

I've built a small body SS Peter, and she hates it - reckons the lower bout is too wide. I've gone with a classical shape but reduced length and width a smidge, drew it up in Gthang and made up a template. I'll make it up and see how it goes. I was going to just use standard fan bracing but I've been looking at lattice bracing and thought it might be worth having a play seeing as how it's all a bit of an experiment.

As far as action is concerned, I will have to keep it higher than a SS (thanks Jeff for the 3/2.5mm figures) but I'll be looking at somewhere between an inch and 5/8 and inch and 3/4 at the nut with a radiused fretboard of say 12 - 14", don't know how that will go.

Os

These are what we are talking about
Pegheds.com - The New Revolution in Tuning
I have used them on one Flamenco they work great and are light but not cheap

Bear in mind that when Martin made the transition from 12 to 14 fret necks in the early 30's. they shortened and flattened the upper bout by the equivalent of one fret to avoid moving the bridge too far forward.
Gthang is great for designing these, I use it too.
1 3/4 nut width is where I go on my SS, still recon you'll be a bit crowded at that for nylons.

Do you have a photo of the flamenco headstock? No info on the pegheds.com website and all I could find on the net was a uke install. Can't quite get my head around whether they are mounted vertically (like the uke) or horizontally (like violin, etc.). Either way they must look a bit odd.

Gthang shows that 26 and 1/8" scale length puts the saddle at about the right place with the body at fret 13. I guess that's what you did? Maybe I'll settle for that!

I might do a bolt on neck too (shudder) so if I have to redo the neck a couple of times, no major drama.

No hurry on this as I've got a bit on so might spend a bit more time thinking on it!

Os

Sorry no detail photos of my headstock it has been sold, but yes they mount vertically like a uke .
Probably not the best for your project, you would do better with standard classical tuners but perhaps narrow the headstock down to work with your narrowed neck.
Nothing wrong with bolt on neck, I do most that way
If you go with a 13 fret neck I have a neck angle spreadsheet which is useful in working out your optimum design, just pm me your email for a copy.

Thanks Jeff, I'll take you up on that. I've done a bolt on neck and actually was nicer for getting a good crisp heel to body fit, just thought that a Spanish heel would be more traditional for this one. If I get time this week, I'll joint the plates just so I can say that I've made a start. I had some nice American Cherry and Oregon Myrtle (which has a nice figure) back and side sets delivered from Hibdon Hardwood last week so might use one of those sets. They're not expensive so no major loss if it doesn't work. I had another look at your UTube videos and it looked to me like you used spruce for your soundboard. Had a nice bright sound, the result of getting away from the more traditional cedar/rosewood combination?

Os

Originally Posted by Osbojo

I had another look at your UTube videos and it looked to me like you used spruce for your soundboard. Had a nice bright sound, the result of getting away from the more traditional cedar/rosewood combination?

Os

Well I'm glad you describe the sound as Bright, I would have been disappointed with "mellow", bright and loud and punchy was what I was aiming for.
I used Englemann Spruce for the top which is lighter than Sitka but not as vulnerable to damage as WRC
This one and it's steel string twin were the first I built using trevor Gore's falcate bracing scheme and his modal tuning methods and I was really happy with the results.

I have a 7 string nylon under way now with rosewood B&S.

Well it's always a bit hard to tell on a recording given choice of mic and how it's mic'd up, room acoustics, etc. Always the temptation to add a bit of parametric eq too! But bright and punchy is a good description. I like it a lot.

I had a quick look at your spreadsheet, I like your work. I assume that the 'baseline' is the top of the soundboard. at first glance it looks pretty straightforward apart from that (famous last words).

Do you have a copy of the Gore/Gillett books? If so, is it worth the $200?

Thanks again.

Os.

No Eq just a fairly cheap external mic straight to the video camera.
One reason I had Jamie speak before playing is to give an idea of levels etc.

Yes I have the books they were definitely worth the money, then I did a 3 day workshop with Trevor as well.
His work is revolutionery the only real science in a guitarbuilding book that I know of, but it takes a lot of commitment to understand and implement.

In using the spreadsheet I define the baseline as the top of the soundboard at the heel/body joint and extending towards the tailblock and nut perpendicular to the neck block. The dome will then be the height above this line at the bridge location.

sounds like it might be just what I need. I wouldn't mind getting a better understanding of what makes a soundboard tick. I know guitar building is an art but coming from an engineering background I think I will appreciate a more scientific approach. I'll order a copy in the next couple of weeks. The website says it is provided with several full size plans so I guess that adds value too.

Thanks again,
Os