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  1. #1
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    Default Violin re-finishing - truoil ?

    Hello again,

    I have been given the job of refinishing my granddaughter's violin from bright aqua poly to natural (stained mahogany) brown.

    After much labour, I have it 95% back to bare wood. I don't advise doing that job unless you're bored and/or retired !
    What looked like 3 hours works was closer to 2 days !



    It looks like its a spruce top and bottom and maybe maple sides.

    Ive never done a spruce refinish on anything, and this top wood has some pinkish shades through it. But Granddaughter says stained mahogany please !

    Ive had a lot of experience refinishing solid body guitars with acrylic lacquers, and a more recent experience with truoil on a build, with good result. But no stain used in that exercise.

    I was wondering if I should or could add a truoil compatible stain to the truoil and then apply it in the truoil application way.

    Truoil has linseed and I think tung oil in it, and 'dryers' of some type.

    Or, given its a cheaper student violin albeit 4/4 size, if there's a better way, eg stain it and spray a clear coat ?

    With adding it to truoil
    (if that's actually possible)
    and then applying it by hand rubbing to the bare wood, , I am a bit concerned that the mahogany stain may not come out uniform with those pink shades in the spruce top. The back is more uniform. But maybe it will look good in a different way ?

    Id appreciate any guidance please.

    regards,
    Don

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  3. #2
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    Default

    Tru Oil does make a nice finish if applied very thin like this video shows (it's a guitar but the basic method is the same...). It is generally easy to apply. It also does have a very nice feel in hand.... And it cures very reliably.... It's not a "traditional" finish for violins... But it will probably work out fine assuming you do your part.

    Here's a video showing application on a guitar...


    Additional discussion:
    Prep wise... Varnishes are particularly unforgiving of dents and scratches in the wood below... Wood prep must be meticulous if you want a good looking varnish finish. The finish is already tinted - and so scratches and boo-boo's show up as dark lines and dark marks. Second - varnishes do not "burn in" to the coat below... Polishing them out can be tricky because they tend to leave witness lines and shadows where one coat ends and the next begins...

    The traditional finish on violins is some sort of a "ground" coat (aka a natural sealer/stain sort of thing) with a "Violin varnish" rubbed on top. The Ground will help prevent uglies in the wood from showing through the varnish quite so much...

    There are 2 basic families of "Violin varnish".. One is "Spirit varnish" - which is a powdered witches brew you dissolve into alcohol and rub on. The second is "Oil varnish" which is like it sounds like - a traditional drying oil and resin mixture you rub in.. Most "proper" Violin Oil Varnishes typically require UV booths or a lot of sunlight to cure. You will have to hang the violin in a sunny window between coats if you don't want a sticky mess 6 weeks later... Luckily violins are small. .

    There are merits with sticking to "traditional" expected finishes. The main one is that "The Next Fellow" will have a good chance of being able to do some sort of useful repair to it rather than once again stripping the whole thing.. But it is what it is..

  4. #3
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    my understanding is that whatever finish you use, the grain must be filled for the finish to look anything other than rough.

    the grain filler (which is a different beast to a sanding sealer) can be lightly stained to enhance the grain, then the overall desired colour is applied in the subsequent coats. Many diluted coats of stain are better than one heavy coat because with diluted coats it's much easier to control the colour and stop when it's just right.
    Then lots of clear coats. A recent guitar build used around 20 coats of wipe on poly before the maker was happy with the result.

    I don't think that the pink shades of the spruce will be an issue. You are going for mahogany, not mission brown.
    regards from Alberta, Canada

    ian

  5. #4
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    That's what the "ground" is for...

    Traditional violin woods - spruce top and maple/birch/European sycamore back is generally nonporous - and so you don't really need a "Pore filler" per-se as you would on a porous wood like Mahogany...

    What the ground does is to help prevent the finish from looking blotchy... You will still see grain lines and grain figure - but you won't get blotchy uneven finish penetration like you see with hand rubbed dyes on bare wood...

  6. #5
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    Also - on the pink look... That's a dye on the ground layer..

    Traditional finishes have a progression of several dyes so you get the expected look for the wood - especially the gentle burst look in the center of the back... There is generally a yellowish dye coat, a pinkish dye coat, and a tobacco brown dye coat or some such similar progression.. Then the finish goes on top of all that.

    But the whole system has to work together for the finish to look "right" in the end...

  7. #6
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    [QUOTE=truckjohn;2077354]Tru Oil does make a nice finish if applied very thin like this video shows (it's a guitar but the basic method is the same...). It is generally easy to apply. It also does have a very nice feel in hand.... And it cures very reliably.... It's not a "traditional" finish for violins... But it will probably work out fine assuming you do your part.

    Thankyou Truckjohn for your reply.

    I'm pretty confident with truoil after doing my last solid-body build, but it was a long learning process, with much help via this Forum . Here's a pic of the finished guitar with truoil applied over un-stained Tasmanian blackwood.


    Id like to try it on the violin, but I'm particularly looking for advice on how to do so with a mahogany stain, either mixed in with the truoil on application, or staining the violin with a compatible mahogany stain and then applying truoil over.

    With the violin being almost a white spruce on top and back and probably light coloured maple on the sides, getting the colour change to mahogany right first time is critical I reckon.

    Perhaps someone has tried this at some stage and can give some further guidance ?

  8. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by ian View Post
    my understanding is that whatever finish you use, the grain must be filled for the finish to look anything other than rough.

    the grain filler (which is a different beast to a sanding sealer) can be lightly stained to enhance the grain, then the overall desired colour is applied in the subsequent coats. Many diluted coats of stain are better than one heavy coat because with diluted coats it's much easier to control the colour and stop when it's just right.
    Then lots of clear coats. A recent guitar build used around 20 coats of wipe on poly before the maker was happy with the result.

    I don't think that the pink shades of the spruce will be an issue. You are going for mahogany, not mission brown.

    Opps, Hi Ian,
    Just finished my reply to truckjohn, and I see your post has popped up ! I will read it all now and reply. Thank you.

  9. #8
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    [QUOTE=truckjohn;2077380]Also - on the pink look... That's a dye on the ground layer..

    Traditional finishes have a progression of several dyes so you get the expected look for the wood - especially the gentle burst look in the center of the back... There is generally a yellowish dye coat, a pinkish dye coat, and a tobacco brown dye coat or some such similar progression.. Then the finish goes on top of all that.But the whole system has to work together for the finish to look "right" in the end...[/QUOTE

    Yikes ! More posts coming in like rain ! Thankyou truckjohn. I will read them all and reply !

  10. #9
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    This was the original finish on the violin.

  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by ian View Post
    my understanding is that whatever finish you use, the grain must be filled for the finish to look anything other than rough.

    the grain filler (which is a different beast to a sanding sealer) can be lightly stained to enhance the grain, then the overall desired colour is applied in the subsequent coats. Many diluted coats of stain are better than one heavy coat because with diluted coats it's much easier to control the colour and stop when it's just right.
    Then lots of clear coats. A recent guitar build used around 20 coats of wipe on poly before the maker was happy with the result.

    I don't think that the pink shades of the spruce will be an issue. You are going for mahogany, not mission brown.
    Thank you Ian. Yes, I did use grain filler on the Tasmanian blackwood project (pic above). I think I used Timbermate, white. I need to look back at the build records (my memory is getting a bit fuzzy these days!).

    I was thinking last night, that if I went that way, and as the removal of all that aqua colour and poly clear has made some of the spruce grain very contoured and uneven , I would apply it with a playing card I think.
    The rest of what you say I understand, and thanks for the tip re doing several light coats of stain.

    Could I apply truoil over it ? And would there be any benefit in doing so ?

  12. #11
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    Now it get's difficult.

    I have a prejudice against water based fillers. I'm not sure why, just that I prefer to use solvent based ones.
    That said, you will already know that the key to any finish is surface preparation.

    In the video that truckjohn posted, the finisher hasn't used a grain filler, is at finish coat 6 or 7 and is still filling the pores.

    provided the stain you use is compatible (i.e. oil or spirit based) I don't see why you couldn't colour the Tru Oil. And then achieve the desired colour through multiple applications of the stained oil. Switching to unstained oil once the colour is close to what you want. (Lee Valley advise that Tru-Oil penetrates the wood to deepen its color and accentuate grain.)

    Polymerized Tung Oil would be an alternative to Tru-Oil
    regards from Alberta, Canada

    ian

  13. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ian View Post
    Now it get's difficult.

    I have a prejudice against water based fillers. I'm not sure why, just that I prefer to use solvent based ones.
    That said, you will already know that the key to any finish is surface preparation.

    In the video that truckjohn posted, the finisher hasn't used a grain filler, is at finish coat 6 or 7 and is still filling the pores.

    provided the stain you use is compatible (i.e. oil or spirit based) I don't see why you couldn't colour the Tru Oil. And then achieve the desired colour through multiple applications of the stained oil. Switching to unstained oil once the colour is close to what you want. (Lee Valley advise that Tru-Oil penetrates the wood to deepen its color and accentuate grain.)

    Polymerized Tung Oil would be an alternative to Tru-Oil
    Thanks Ian and truckjohn. I looked at some notes and realised/remembered that on the blackwood guitar, I used truoil with an orbital sander and made a slurry as a grain filler, and after levelling, applied around 15 coats of truoil, sanding a little between some of the coats (I was learning as I went). It did work well. But on the blackwood fretboard I used Fest Watson Sanding sealer, as , of course, I had radiused the board to 12", so no orbital sanding of it afterwards.

    BTW, I also recalled I used the Timbermate white using a playing card on a G&L' Tele' respray, which had a swamp ash body. Grainy wood. Then finished it with acrylic lacquers.

    So I'm thinking I could do either method (truoil slurry or Feast Watson sanding sealer), in both cases pre-staining the truoil with mahogany turps based tint, increasing the tint ratio as I go.

    Id rather not try truckjohns method (no offence) , as I probably wont ever do a violin again, but if I was contemplating getting into violins, I would learn to do it on a family violin like this one, rather than a friend's.

    But also, I'm confident with the methods Ive done before, except...Ive never tried mixing any tint with truoil, but as you said Ian, it should work.

    On balance, is it better to apply the Feast Watson product, level sand, apply the mahogany stain using several light coats, and then do a truoil finish ?

    Or...drop the truoil gloss-satin finishing altogether, and just use (spray) poly or lacquer ? Id prefer lacquer because Ive used it for decades.

    What do you both think ?

  14. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by donnyb View Post
    So I'm thinking I could do either method (truoil slurry or Feast Watson sanding sealer), in both cases pre-staining the truoil with mahogany turps based tint, increasing the tint ratio as I go.

    Id rather not try truckjohns method (no offence) , as I probably wont ever do a violin again, but if I was contemplating getting into violins, I would learn to do it on a family violin like this one, rather than a friend's.
    the advice / instruction I received regarding stains and tints is to dilute the colour and build up to the desired colour using multiple layers. Increasing the amount of tint in the finish was always discouraged.

    Feast Watson's sanding sealer is not a grain filler.

    What I'd try is a very light mahogany stain, followed by further applications until the colour is close to what you want.
    I'd then use a grain filler tinted to the same shade, followed by the spray lacquer you are confident in using.
    PROVIDED the spray lacquer will sustain the sort of wear a violin gets.

    I'm not confident that using multiple coats of spray lacquer will work as a grain filer. But you have much more experience than me using sprayed lacquer.
    regards from Alberta, Canada

    ian

  15. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by ian View Post
    the advice / instruction I received regarding stains and tints is to dilute the colour and build up to the desired colour using multiple layers. Increasing the amount of tint in the finish was always discouraged.

    Feast Watson's sanding sealer is not a grain filler.

    What I'd try is a very light mahogany stain, followed by further applications until the colour is close to what you want.
    I'd then use a grain filler tinted to the same shade, followed by the spray lacquer you are confident in using.
    PROVIDED the spray lacquer will sustain the sort of wear a violin gets.

    I'm not confident that using multiple coats of spray lacquer will work as a grain filer. But you have much more experience than me using sprayed lacquer.
    Hi again Ian,

    Thought I should give you an update, as you have kindly persisted with giving me advice.

    After a lot of time researching on the web and contacting and speaking with well known names in the grain filling (solvent and waterbased) and coatings field, and experimenting with several combinations and methods on light coloured test pieces (paddle pop sticks are great for this ), Ive settled on doing pretty much everything you recommended, with a little variation.

    As you suggested elsewhere to your quote above, I started by scraping back some of the surrounding wood adjacent to the places where the deepest grain tear out had occurred, but not totally removing the grain tears.

    Yesterday I stained all the violin with Prooftint Maple by rag application, not Mahogany as originally planned, which was too dark and too mulberry red. The Maple colour on the violin now is lighter than I had in mind, but read on.

    I found via test piece experimenting, that Fest Watson Sanding Sealer should, with a 2-3 coats, fill the remaining grain damage and it also took the Prooftint stain very well, but it does alter the colour . I assume this is due to the greyish opaqueness on the Sanding Sealer, and by luck, by adding more Maple stain gradually to the sealer in a jar, and adding about 10% turps (I'm using Pure Gum Turps), I have a colour that is darker and is close to what I initially imagined.

    The proof of course will be in the pudding, so I intend to spray 3 wet coats of the sealer/stain mix to the spruce top over the next 3 days (the sealer can be recoated after 6 hours), and probably just an initial 1 coat to the back, sides and neck, where there are no noticeable tear outs, just some scratches in difficult to sand places like the scroll .

    If all goes well, I am thinking I would only level sand the top with 600 up to 1000 , and just 0000 steel wool the rest , to remove overspray and dust.
    If that goes well, I'm thinking now Scandanavian Oil rubbed finish.

    Do you see any flaws in this overall plan for the next week ?

  16. #15
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    You almost certainly have more experience with spraying finish material than I have. Apart from rattle cans, it's almost 10 years since I last applied a spray lacquer.

    The only thought I have with your proposal is: will you be sanding the FW sanding sealer back between coats? I have heard of situations where FW's sanding sealer takes a very long time to dry -- like over a week. Which I think related to either multiple coats before sanding or a single very heavy coat.

    As you say, the proof will be in the pudding. Perhaps start with the back, and if all goes well proceed to the top.
    regards from Alberta, Canada

    ian

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