Beth with outriggers?

Hi Guys, been trying t work out how to ease my dizziness problems, to ensure I can keep sailing. I have owned and learnt from many boats, more than 22 counted a few years ago, and only one boat remained that I wanted to try.

She is a Shearwater sailing canoe fitted with outriggers. They are very well made and outside my limited means, but a second hand one turned up which I was fortunate to buy.

I have just had my first two sails in her and she works very well for me so far. Small sail, only 4 m, very easily driven and resonsive to sail, comfortable sitting facing forward and no dipping my head for tacking - the thing that makes me dizzy.

Here are some pics and a video of my first sail. Note how you never see the outriggers in the water - they are raised to miss the water in normal sailing but be there if needed.

Picasa Web Albums - 11576796960220832... - Shearwater fi...

and video

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy816d_-Fi8]YouTube - Shearwater sailing canoe, first sail in the Solent[/ame]

and a Solent Potter yesterday, in 13 knots average gusting 17 knots. Quite windy and bouncy down the Solent, but lovely and peaceful coming back all through the marshes.

Picasa Web Albums - 11576796960220832... - Tanners Lane ...

I have to say that the outriggers were very welcome. Allowed me to relax and enjoy sailing a canoe without worry I would capsize any minute.

So, perhaps Beth could be more widely built and enjoyed with similar lifted outriggers? No one likes them for there looks, but they are very popular for sea sailing here in the UK.

All the best everybody

Brian

Quote:

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Originally Posted by keyhavenpotter

So, perhaps Beth could be more widely built and enjoyed with similar lifted outriggers? No one likes them for there looks, but they are very popular for sea sailing here in the UK.

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Hi Brian!
I think - outriggers could be problems for flat bottomed Beth at rough water than flat bottomed boats pounding at waves when no heeled, but I consider to try of it.
Outriggers for round bottomed and for Vee bottomed canoes is a very good idea!

Hi Robert, the Shearwater has to heel a great deal before the outrigger immerse, so perhaps Beth would be V shaped by the time the outriggers were immersed?

Brian

Quote:

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Originally Posted by keyhavenpotter

the Shearwater has to heel a great deal before the outrigger immerse, so perhaps Beth would be V shaped by the time the outriggers were immersed?

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I think - probably yes! :)

see attachement :)

I think that Beth is such a cool boat but unless you were just using them as training wheels, the outriggers would defeat the purpose. If you were going to make a multi-hull, you would be better off starting with something like some of Gary Dierking's stuff.(Assuming that MIK doesn't have anything similar on a back burner somewhere.)


Read MIK's take on even adding hiking boards (at the bottom of the Beth page) discusses exactly the problems it creates with the spars and such from just a hiking board. Outriggers would be much rougher on it.

Exactly - she is pretty stable boat :)

The Shearwater going along nicely in the video is 25% wider and has half the sail area! Just thought I would mention it.....

Brian

Howdy Brian,

I think with your balance being a bit out the visual cues from the outriggers getting closer or further away from the water would also be a useful cue as well. Give you time to apply your skills as they give such a clear idea of the amount of heel.

I did write a bit at the bottom of my BETH page about leaning planks - somebody was always suggesting a leaning plank until I added that bit.
See the blue writing at the bottom here ...
Beth Sailing Canoe - Michael Storer Wooden Boat Plans

Leaning planks did appear not long after about 1880, but I based Beth on the sailing canoes of the 1870s to keep the expense and complication down.

However while the extra stress argument might be relevant for full size outriggers - I was ready to write about it when I saw the thread - such small ones as the Shearwater will not affect the stability a great deal as they are so easily immersed. But another 30 lbs of buoyancy at 3ft out is going to give some quite useful foot poundals.

I keep wondering about the Quick Canoe as a simple sailing canoe - with or without the drop in outriggers. A bit more sail than Paul Helbert has been playing with. A cheap man's BETH if you like.

MIK

Which reminds me, Bolger comments in BWAOM that one of his slender box boats
actually worked out to be a better boat as a tri.

How does Eureka perform with a decent size sail & foils MIK?
Has anyone done a full-on sailing version with Beth-sized sails & your out-riggers?

That Shearwater sure is a nice boat to watch on the water. And on land.
Is she yours now Brian? Or just borrowed for the day?
AJ

Howdy BOAT,

I haven't sailed a Eureka with the outriggers and special rig I have drawn up to give, I think about 60 sq ft.

I originally drew up the outriggers for a 17ft redbird strip canoe which was fitted with about a 75 square foot rig. I suspect very much that the boat will perform much the same with different main hulls assuming they are something like a canoe.

The Redbird - a classic canoe in the canoecraft book is quite fine in the ends and hollow as well which made is slow to manouver - at least when tacking. So much drag from the bow and stern as they are forced around a curve that it is hard not to stall half way through a tack.

Reaching speed and running speed were very satisfactory. Upwind the floats provide the lateral resistance so if you wanted to go upwind effectively you had to sit on the lee gunwale or on the crossbeam outside the hull to get the leeward float deep enough in the water to provide lateral resistance.

Was very much worth keeping speed up going upwind. Not let it slow down. This meant a tacking angle of probably 120 degrees but we were footing so fast at that angle there was little leeway and the distance covered was worth it.

MIK

One thing that kept striking me as I looked at different shearwater canoes on the net is just how reminiscent of the olympic finn dinghy. Sarby the designer of the Finn was a canoe nut ... he made a very wide and quite long canoe and lopped the stern off to get the Finn. On paper, or maybe on the strongback ... but you can really see it in some of these shots.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Na7hS_GEkmw"]YouTube- Shearwater sailing canoe on Ullswater[/ame]

This one might give an idea of the attractions of canoe sailing ... and also might give some idea of how the little outriggers interact in stronger winds

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_ytUgkwwbs]YouTube - Sailing canoe aquamuse??mizusima?hukui?JAPAN?[/ame]
from Japan.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Boatmik

Howdy BOAT,

I haven't sailed a Eureka with the outriggers and special rig I have drawn up to give, I think about 60 sq ft.

MIK

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Outriggers duly ordered.
Have foil blanks in shed.
Will think about rig closer to time (later this year at earliest).
AJ

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Boatmik

I haven't sailed a Eureka with the outriggers and special rig I have drawn up to give, I think about 60 sq ft.


MIK

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Hopefully it will happen this spring.

The rig is still on the to do list but it is also getting near the top. :D

Kewl !!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Boatmik

I keep wondering about the Quick Canoe as a simple sailing canoe - with or without the drop in outriggers. A bit more sail than Paul Helbert has been playing with. A cheap man's BETH if you like.
MIK

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"Progeny of Beth and Quick Canoe"

Hi Mik, I really like that concept:

(1) A boat I can build in a couple of weekends, tie on a trolley and walk to the beach, paddle off down the river with three kids on board, have the wife meet us with the Corolla after she's had lunch with her friends, put the canoe on the roof and the kids in the car and head on home. (This is the quick canoe exactly as is)

(2) Add the foils and sail plan from Beth, (centreboard case/offset centreboard case/crossbeam for a leeboard?), again trolley to the beach and go out on my own and (like Beth) give a competent laser sailor a fright. The under water shape of the quick canoe can't be much different from Beth, maybe just leave the skegg off the front so it tacks more easily, sort out the foil attachments and mast steps.

Add a fitted PVC deck and some custom made PVC buoyancy bags so you can get going again after a knockdown as quickly as the Laser sailors?

(3) Add outriggers (full like your outrigger plans or tiny like Keyhavenpotters Shearwater?), tie it on a trolley, walk to the beach, choose day/reef/sail prudently and sail it to town and back with the kids on board.

I can see some difficulties doing (2) - having the strength/torsional rigidity for hard sailing with a Beth sized rig, while maintaining (1) - a light open canoe for going down the river with the kids, but maybe it can be done.

What do you think?

Ian

Something else I've been thinking:

There's maybe potential in general for some of these completely open boats like the GIS and Quick Canoe to add a removable PVC deck of some sort plus buoyancy bags, get them to where they virtually un-floodable in a knockdown. Wouldn't go out that way all the time, but could be an option.

Making a fitted PVC deck (widish gunwale lip around the outside of the boat, shock cord on the PVC deck edge that fits over it, a few velcro tabs that close around cord loops embedded in the underside of the gunwale so it can't come off) plus a couple of custom made buoyancy bags wouldn't take long or add much weight. (See (Folding Sea Kayak - a set on Flickr), for some pictures of things I’ve been doing with PVC and glue.)

I don't see a full Beth type rig as being appropriate - too many spars and bits to be made. But I do like the idea of a ketch.

Would probably need some buoyancy tanks each end to give the torsional rigidity. Maybe the outriggers trimaran config is a better choice - there are no real torsional loads because lateral loads from resisting leeway, rig loads and the righting moment of the Amas all happens through the crossbeams.

Whereas a ketch/yawl rigged boat with a leeboard is going to have quite big torsional loads along the hull because the masts and leeboard are not in line. I think it would probably require quite big buoyancy areas to stiffen up the hull and some side decks as well each side of the cockpit area.

Too complicated and cuts into the simplicity and multifunction. Thankyou for the thoughts! Quite an interesting idea to take it a bit further by discussing.

MIK

G'day MIK
my musings in this area parallel Ian's.
"One ring to rule them all" and all that...

One boat which can be:

• Paddled with, or without company.
• Sailed solo in light air as a mono.
• Add amas if wind is stronger, or your companion/s demand it, or you just want to relax & enjoy the ride.
• Add amas & an electric donk to go fishing with the kids or grandkids.

Which would be the better of your 3 "canoes" for the central hull?
Beth, Eureka, or Quick Canoe ?

Understanding is that there would be additional permanent decking & framing
required to handle a daggerboard/leeboard and outrigger cross-beams.
Decking and frames done in 4mm ply with minimal reinforcing timbers...
Also added reinforcing around the stems, one or both of which may be fitted with gudgeons depending upon seating requirements.

Added complexity - yes!
Added weight - yes, but manageable? and worth the increased functionality?
Is there another 3- or 4-way boat in this class?

cheers
AJ

Hobie makes their 'Adventure Island' kayak which uses their amazing Mirage drive. This configuration can be used as a regular kayak, a trimaran, a pedal boat, or a sailboat using the same central hull and adding or subtracting bits depending on the usage. Perhaps the compexity of the entire package would be a small price to pay compared to building three different boats. Just sayin', thats all...

Rick

Quote:

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Originally Posted by b.o.a.t.

One boat which can be:

• Paddled with, or without company.
• Sailed solo in light air as a mono.
• Add amas if wind is stronger, or your companion/s demand it, or you just want to relax & enjoy the ride.
• Add amas & an electric donk to go fishing with the kids or grandkids.

Which would be the better of your 3 "canoes" for the central hull?
Beth, Eureka, or Quick Canoe ?

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:)
I think:
Beth was designed especially as a traditional, by her character shape, monohull planing sailing canoe - good as she is. Outriggers can to change her specific beauty character.

Eureka is a paddling canoe - less stable than Beth and her sailing ability could be better with outriggers (I suppose).

Quick Canoe's hull has similar stability to Beth's hull I think, but she was designed as a multipurpose canoe and many modifications possible are. I think she is really the best for modifications and for purposes as above. :)

Sorry for duplicate posting (database error was and I've clicked twice)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by b.o.a.t.

G'day MIK
my musings in this area parallel Ian's.
"One ring to rule them all" and all that...

One boat which can be:

• Paddled with, or without company.
• Sailed solo in light air as a mono.
• Add amas if wind is stronger, or your companion/s demand it, or you just want to relax & enjoy the ride.
• Add amas & an electric donk to go fishing with the kids or grandkids.

Which would be the better of your 3 "canoes" for the central hull?
Beth, Eureka, or Quick Canoe ?
cheers
AJ

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Good question about the multipurpose aspect,

I have paddled beth some reasonable distances and she is a dog as a pure paddling canoe, but way better than the average dinghy in terms of getting places under paddle power. Just doesn't make the grade as a pure paddling boat. She is really oriented towards sailing

The Quick canoe would be OK. I would suspect that at higher speeds downwind in waves that bow fin might turn out to be a liability - getting a good grip in the back of a wave and overpowering the rudder. I would just plane it down. the hull has lots of buoyancy in terms of hull volume so it might be better in more difficult conditions ... with appropriate built in or bag buoyancy (did you note the buoyancy bags fitted when in the clips Eli was doing his canoe rolling trick).

The Eureka would probably be better performing in light and moderate conditions ... less wetted area, a less draggy shape. Would certainly perform best with the drop in sailing rig which has only a small sail (without outriggers).

For sailing you wouldn't use the built in seats .. you would move more centrally in the boat. You could use a beanbag like paul does when fishing for outrigger sailing with the bigger rig but it would be a good idea not to use the beanbag for sailing without the outriggers in anything but the lightest wind.

The drop in sailing rig is the small sail with leeboard integrated with the mast partner. The drop in outriggers have additional info available showing how the mast partner is integrated with the front crossbeam.

MIK

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Boatmik

I don't see a full Beth type rig as being appropriate - too many spars and bits to be made. But I do like the idea of a ketch.
MIK

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Hi Mik,

Can you clarify what you are thinking here regarding (Beth - yawl rig - "not appropriate/too many spars") vs (Ketch - like the idea") My understanding is the ketch rig is the same as the Yawl in principle except the mizzen is further forward.

Agree with the difficulties of handling torsional loads, potentially solved by the drop in outrigger setup with a mast partner integrated in both the front and rear cross beam for a ketch style rig.

Ian

Hi Peter,

Sorry, my writing was misleading

The Quick canoe is so simple and time efficient to put together that it really needs a rig that is pretty similar in concept.

The balance lug doesn't really qualify - six spars, some needing rounding ... I would probably look at a sprit rig.

I was bundling the ketch/yawl rig together in the sentence, but my punctuation let me down.

MIK

The Duck Punts manage with just an Opi sprit rig and no rudder or board at all, just an oar.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMwzdD96GSA&feature=player_embedded]YouTube - Duck Punt Racing[/ame]

They are just about the coolest boats on the planet. Would be great if one of the Quickanoe builders could just stick an opi rig in and a thole pin to pivot the oar against and try it.

Would have to be the coolest, quickest to build, leased involved sailboat build ever!

Brian

I do think a lot about this clip Brian ... it has been in my brain since you put it up the first time. I think it will match the Quick Canoe well (though the sail area may be a bit big) or can look at doing a specialist version in quick canoe construction with the same dimensions as the Duck Punts.

One of the problems I ran into years ago is that using a paddle to steer can cause quite a lot of load on one's back - so I have strongly recommended fitting a proper rudder for those with dodgy backs for users of my drop in sailing rig.

The downside of the duck punt rig is the cost - a pdr style rig with a well designed but polytarp sail would be just brilliant. The opti rigs are so far evolved past the original curtain rod spars that it is ridiculous - I think during the PDR debates I found a supplier for very nice set of 7000 series (aircraft) drawn aluminium tube spars for the opti for $700 - about the same as our full budget for everything for our first two PDRacers.

Do you know if they have class rules, Brian? I mean the Duck Punts?

MIK

Hi MIK. Yes the Duck Punt videos do get under the skin some what!

I was thinking more of secondhand rig, not new. Because of all the spending in the Opi class on latest gear, it leaves a lot of good gear available secondhand for little money.

A nice small sprit rig will be perfect either secondhand or made to an MIK design.

So far, the Duck Punts have all been made on the same jig and use Opi rigs. Oar length is defined as no longer than reaching your nose when standing!

Here is the Duck Punt website.

duckpunt | Laid back sailing

I have managed to secure a set of plans, some have taken years trying. The beam is only an inch or so more than your QC.

I would be happy to post them to you if you let me have your current address for you to look at. The stern has a dart in the side panel which creates a lovely fluted stern. I would be interesting to look at a much easier and quicker Quickanoe type build of a Duck Punt, although the ply used is 10mm and weight might form part of the way the design works.

It would seem though that one of the options for this multi use version of the Quickanoe could be small sprit and oar, in the Duck Punt style.

When you used an oar for steering, do you also have a thole pin as the Duck Punts do? Perhaps that helps a lot?

Brian