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For general cabinet work, is a spiral head thicknesser worth the extra? I am looking at the Carbatec model, 15 inch. Also, the 6 inch jointer. These will be my first pieces of equipment, I don't want to make a mistake. I work with hardwood.
Does anyone have any experience with the Carbatec models. I have used the standard cutter model of thicknesser and found it very good.
Thanks
Hereward
from what i learnt here on the forum. you will not regret buying the carbatec machines. they are a great piece of equipment.
but lets be honest, it is the cheapest brand available and you may have to do some fine tuning.
a lot of people here have had very positive experiences with carbatec machines, so you should be right.
as far as the spiral head goes, i would highly recommend buying one.
i have seen these spiral heads in action and it blew me away!
i was at the wood working show, and there was a carbatec thicknesser with a spiral head attached.
i was amazed at how quiet they are when passing a 1.8 metre x 150mm x 150mm hardwood through the machine.
i was standing right next to the machine talking to the carbatec salesman as he was passing the timber through. i was not shouting at all, just talking normally because it was so quiet.
the quality of the cut was absolutely beautiful.
no doubt whatsoever, the spiral head is a fantastic/expensive piece of kit.
but in my opinion, well worth the dollars.
i would also recommend looking at the jet models, i think they are of a slightly better build quality and a little more expensive too.
personally i would prefer an 8 inch(200mm) jointer, as a 6 inch(150mm) would not suit my needs.
have you looked at the combo models?
justin.
Just be aware the Carbatec planer and thicknesser are not true spiral cutter heads, but a straight cutter head with an imitation spiral machined in. They use the same style cutters as the Byrd, and because they are spaced it’s still very quiet and the cut quality is still better than conventional blades, but they do not shear cut like true helical heads.
My advice if you really want the Carbatec, is to get the 15” without the fake spiral cutter head and with the $1000 you save add another $600 and have a genuine Byrd Shelix helical head installed. Months/years down the track you will be so glad you spent the extra. Also it will have better resale value if you ever wanted to sell it.
Also Jet has a combination planer/thicknesser JPT-310HH No idea how much they are as you would need to speak to your local Jet dealer. That’s a great option if space is a little tight, and you are saving heaps because there is only one head. And that machine uses the Byrd Shelix helical head.
I have the Byrd on my 8” Jointer and love it so much. Apart from my Domino, it’s the next best thing I own. :)
Thanks for that advice, I will bat that off to Carbatec and see what they say. Space is not an issue for me, thats why I am not thinking about the combined machines. I have seen the Jet stuff and believe it is well made.
For me, the number one issue for choosing a cutter style is ease of knife adjustment and change.
The spiral/hellical/Shellix style of head is supposedly dead simple to change and would have to be worth it for that factor alone. I think the cutting action is an added bonus.
Ditto what Lignum said - all spiral/helical cutterheads are NOT created equal.
Advantages (to various degrees with the different versions) are lower noise, no time wasted setting blades/easier to fix nicks in blades, and ability to handle weird grain without tearout. It depends which of these is important to you - for me its just the last two, and bear in mind that you could address the tearout issue using a drum sander for final finishing at about the same price as a spiral cutterhead....
The Shelix will give by far the best cut quality - the only noise you will hear is your wallet screaming :oo:. I got a quote for a Shelix to go on my JET JPT-310 jointer/thicknesser, and its around $1700 (+ fitting). Mind you, having seen the Shelix demonstrated at the Sydney WWW show, it really is the ducks nuts....
JET will be bringing out the JPT-310HH with a spiral cutterhead around November. The single-phase version of the machine has a slower feed rate on the thicknesser part to suit the spiral head. I was told that my 3-phase JPT-310 could possibly have the JET spiral cutterhead retrofitted without altering the feed rate, as the 3-phase motor has more grunt. JET charge about another $1000 for the spiral cutterhead option, so I'm hoping I could get just the cutterhead part for maybe $1200 to upgrade my machine.
I don't know what spiral head JET will be using - I haven't seen one, and I'm not sure its actually a Shelix. More likely a Chinese copy.........Sherix maybe? :rolleyes:
The Jet combo with spiral cutterhead is supposed to be around $4.5K when its available. I have just gone with the Hammer A3-31 as its around the same price ( bit cheaper) as the Jet and is available now. I have also specified the 18% Carbide HSS blades over the standard European ones which last the distance on Aussie hardwoods.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lignum
lol!Quote:
Originally Posted by mr brush
Below is a pic of my Shelix helical head and the Carbatec spiral head.
You can see the Shelix cutters are on a 17deg angle spiraling around the head giving a shear cut in the process.
The Carbatec has the cutters all parallel with the cutter block and the spiral is just machined in. The machined groove still aides chip ejection, so it does serve some purpose apart from falsely claiming to be a spiral cutter.
Are you talking about standard cuter head blades or Shelix cutters. ?Quote:
Originally Posted by TP1
I heard about $4200 for the JPT-310HH with (whichever) spiral cutterhead, vs $3200 or thereabouts for the standard machine with normal blades.
Mind you, in true JET fashion, all prices are probably "ex-Brisbane"......
Im 98% positive its a Byrd Shelix thats fitted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Brush
thanks for the photos and explanation lignum.
i was not aware of this discrepancy until you pointed it out.
justin.
No probs, but the carbatec still produces a great cut.Quote:
Originally Posted by justinmcf
The pic below is a bit of Blackwood with a huge knot going straight through, and the grain very tight going in every direction. This is always a problem with standard cutters
The first pic shows it after being pushed over the Shelix. Not one single bit of tiny tear-out, all soooo smooth. :)
The next pic shows it after then being put through the thicknesser with new very sharp conventional blades. Heaps of small tear-out on the yellow line, and big deep tare-out on the red line. :(
The head for the 8" jointer is $900 plus gst, but worth every cent. :2tsup:
They are indeed. The Perth price was an estimate at the time of enquiry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Brush
I was talking about the Hammer quick change cutters (straight). The European spec ones fitted at the factory are for Euro timbers and not for Aussie hardwoods. All Hammer and Felder replacement knives in Australia are the higher spec HSS knives ( double sided).Quote:
Originally Posted by Lignum
The system appealed to me because you can flip over or change the 3 knives and have them perfectly set within a minute or so. This opens up all sorts of possibilities like using a not so perfect set for skip dressing second hand hand timbers and preserving the newer knives from nails etc.
The Hammer is reputed to give a very smooth finish although I would agree a helical head would be better for situations like you have pointed out. In any event, at this point in time, there was no other choice for a quick change & set knife system in a 12" combo jointer/thicknesser ( I wouldn't hold my breath for the Jet reaching WA this year)
This is an interesting discussion - again.
I would think that the average non professional woodworker would be more than a happy chappy to have a Carbatec spiral head jointer and thicknesser in his shed. I would and plan for that to happen before the end of the year.
I have seen the Sheilx version demonstrated and it certainly is impressive. Question is however, is it that much better than the Carbatec offering to justify the additional cost. For most hobby woodies I think not. The Carbatec spiral head seems to me to offer all the same advantages and it is probably just a matter of perception rather than fact as to which one produces a better outcome.
It is interesting that there has not yet been input to this discussion from any forum members who actually own the Carbatec machines. Is Carbatec no selling many?
Carbatec haven't been selling these for too long and the spiral cutter block is not available on any of their combo machines ( which are popular with hobbyists). Perhaps there aren't too many out there yet but a quick search from USA based forums had some information ( I am assuming Grizzly machines would be similar to Carbatec)
Grizzly G0593 8" Jointer w/spiral cutting head - Sawmill Creek
Review: Grizzly G0453 15" Planer - by Don K. @ LumberJocks.com ~ woodworking community
The link from TPI shows a Grizzly/Carbatec head. Interesting comparison from the Byrd web site Shelix
With a casual observation, their appears to be a big difference in quality.
Perhaps, and if so, what are the indicators that the Shelix would be more beneficial to the average amateur woodworker over time in terms of the known extra cost over (?) performance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lignum
Never mind a casual observation, even after close scrutiny of those images, I can't find fault with the quality of either head - they look beautifully made. It's obvious they are totally different designs, but as for quality, what can you see that I can't?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lignum
One is a simple straight line staggered cutter head, with an unnecessary CNC routed spiral, the reduction in weight alone would not be a good thing when under sever load. It’s purely for looks apart from some added chip ejection that in the end isn’t that necessary. I have used the thicknesser and it’s good, but no where near the quality of the Byrd, especially with tight hard Aussie eucalypts. Do your self a favor and go check both out, and ill bet you will then agree with me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodwould
None of what you effused relates to the quality of the items in the images you posted. You're talking about quality of cut which would be better illustrated with comparative images of planed timber.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lignum
I have no doubt the Byrd cutter block is technically a superior item, but by all accounts (other than yours), the Carba-Tec/Grizzly block performs well above standard straight blades, revealing zero tear-out in most instances.
In terms of cost versus performance between the Byrd and the Carba-Tec/Grizzly blocks, I'm doubtful if many people would see the benefit of the dearer item.
So I assume you will be going for the Carbatec then. I will be interested in your assessment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodwould
I already have a thicknesser – with conventional straight blades.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lignum
I may be wrong but the carbatec style head looks like it has far fewer cutters. That in itself would make a difference.
Not sure exactly how many the Carbatec has, but the 8” Byrd has 5 rows of 8 cutters.Quote:
Originally Posted by mat
According to the specs on the Carbatec site, each machine has the following
20" - 98 inserts
15" - 74 inserts
8" - 40 inserts
Many thanks for all feedback. I don't want a combined machine, I am thinking about a standard head cutter for the jointer and spiral for the thicknesser. It looks like JET is the preffered option?
Thanks to all again.